Brazil - Peru
Referee: Roberto Tobar (CHI)
Assistant Referee 1: Christian Schiemann (CHI)
Assistant Referee 2: Claudio Rios (CHI)
Fourth Official: Alexis Herrera (VEN)
VAR: Julio Bascuñan (CHI)
AVAR1: Nicolas Gallo (COL)
AVAR2: Alexander Guzman (COL)
Mario Díaz de Vivar from Paraguay will officiate Third Place game.
6 July 2019 21:00 CET, Arena Corinthians, São Paulo (BRA)
Argentina - Chile
Referee: Mario Díaz de Vivar (PAR)
Assistant Referee 1: Eduardo Cardozo (PAR)
Assistant Referee 2: Dario Gaona (PAR)
Fourth Official: Gery Vargas (BOL)
VAR: Diego Haro (PER)
AVAR1: Andrés Rojas (COL)
AVAR2: Jonny Bossio (PER)
I think that they didn't want Pitana from Argentina and Brazil to meet again after all what happened, quite easy to explain. Pitana would have deserved it more than Tobar.
ReplyDeleteMaybe they should have put him in 4th official spot?
DeleteArgentina as a whole is pissed off at everything and anything that has to do with Copa America. To include the VAR system, its operators and of course Roddy Zambrano.
DeleteYou mean, Pitana and his colleagues left Brazil immediately in protest? ;)
DeleteC'mon now Philipp. You know that is not what I said. But CONMEBOL would be putting Pitana in a no win situation. Any borderline call that goes against Brasil. People would interpret it as him "getting even".
DeleteYes, I know that. And I agree, that this could have been an important argument against Pitana. Should not be relevant IMO, but it probably is.
DeleteThe Argentine FA is not taking the loss well. Reports indicate that they will be filing some sort of complaint or report to CONMEBOL. Which supposedly includes the audio of the communication between Zambrano and the VAR. I guess that it's gotten so bad and to the point that there is a lot of finger pointing going on. As nobody seems to want to accept responsibility and shoulder the blame.
DeleteTobar was very good in Brazil - Paraguay. Deserved nomination.
ReplyDeleteSome "fun facts":
ReplyDeleteAll five appointments of Diaz de Vivar (as referee, 4th and AVAR) involve Chile.
Vargas was only used as AVAR so far - no matches as referee or 4th
Bossio had not been used as AVAR yet in the tournament.
It's the 4th match of Peru, where Gallo is AVAR.
No games at all for referees from Bolivia is indeed strange, also highlighted by Arbitro Internacional. Gery Vargas could have officiated at least one match.
DeleteVargas even took part in the FIFA seminar this year, so he should be somehow shortlisted for 2022. Same for Gonzalez and Orbe, who also did not get a match.
DeleteGery Vargas is a good referee. IMO he is better than a couple referee's who were actually assigned as main referee in the tournament. Sadly he is from one of the weaker nations in CONMEBOL. He has nobody to advocate for him in the Ref Comm.
DeleteOne year ago on WC, Faghani deserved for Final, but Pitana (candidate no 2) was a referee in final.
ReplyDeleteNow Pitana is the best referee in CA, but Tobar (candidate no 2-3) will be appointed for final.
To be honest, I think that is a small suprise.
This is your opinion. There is no fact who the best is. To me Pitana was the best and I was sure he would get the final back in February way before the world cup.
DeleteYes, it is just his opinion. But why do you have to acten that?
Delete* accent
DeleteBecause he wrote it as everyone agreed Faghani was the best...
DeleteYou should understand that he didn't. He wrote that as his opinion. Must everyone really add "I think", "IMO" and so on just because one can't understand that such texts are always personal opinions as there are no official "the best referee"? No.
DeletePitana is n°1 without any doubt
ReplyDeleteLet us not forget that it was Tobar who was the man in the middle of the Argentina v Colombia war earlier in the tournament
ReplyDeleteExactly my point. That match alone isn't deserving of a final but what can we do but only to wish him Good luck and pray he is error free in the final
DeleteWith the Argentine FA lodging a formal complaint. We'll have the opportunity to see if CONMEBOL will mirror CAF in regards to referee corrective action. Or if they will continue down the well established path and simply brush it all under the rug.
ReplyDeleteBig chaos there with Messi and Medel both sent off right now...
ReplyDeleteYou can't succeed in a game when players behave like this. Awful behaviour, especially by Chilean players. The double sending off, having in mind that treated isolatedly is perhaps even wrong, was the last resort (in other case we would have most likely experienced boxing fights).
ReplyDeleteAdditional remark: at least 6 minutes should have been added (same Medel-Messi incident lasted 4 minutes, there was another conflict and Alexis Sánchez' injury...).
Three minutes were finally added by Mario Díaz to complete the report ;)
DeleteIt was like Medel was begging for that RC from the start.
ReplyDeleteThe Medel-Messi incident (double sending off)
ReplyDeletehttps://streamable.com/cpo0g
I am not a Messi fan at all (especially after his comments about the referee in the semi finals) but this red card is completely undeserved. Even for the Medel a YC would have been sufficient IMO. Is this not a case for VAR?
DeleteMedel: clear RC. Messi: nothing, big mistake there.
DeleteVAR?
Nothing new here. All tournament long the referee's have encouraged this type of overly physical and at times brutal football. They've encouraged it by being overly permissive and lenient.
DeleteAssessing this incident isolatedly, I fully agree of course. But I can't imagine sending off only Medel (Chileans would have killed the referee) and issuing two YCs wouldn't stop the fights in this game and even bigger conflict would be a matter of minutes. As I said, you can't succeed there.
DeleteI ask you Mhmd S. AlKhalifi.
DeleteWhy and/or how did this match get to this point?
With the 2 red cards given did not stop the fights. Dissents and tackles are still flying . That was never red for both players especially for Messi
DeleteA football match is much like a pot of water over a flame. The water does not instantly boil over. Just like a match doesn't instantly go to shit. There are actions and incidents that cause it. And we all know, that once you've lost control. It's nearly impossible to regain control. No matter how many cards you show.
Delete@Sheriff Castrilli
DeleteChileans felt hard done by rather wrong free kick leading to first Argentina's goal. After second goal they were extremely frustrated. On the other hand, Argentineans furiously mobbed the referee several times. But yeah, basically the starting point was the wrong free kick decision leading to opening goal.
Poor officiating. 53' missed YC Isla, kicks opponent with ball away.
ReplyDeleteLater on missed penalty, VAR intervenes.
This match has gotten to the point where the referee has become irrelevant. The tackles continue to fly. The dissent continues to flow. There is zero acceptance from the players and from the bench personnel. CONMEBOL sadly sent this unprepared man to a match in which he is drowning.
ReplyDeleteThe referees has been poor honestly
ReplyDeleteCONMEBOL is to blame. The Ref Comm has doen a poor job in recent years properly grooming new referee's to handle top tough matches. Unlike CAF, who has quite a few trusted referee's and who continues to develop more.
DeleteClear VC by Messi before the altercation by deliberately stepping on Medel's heel.
ReplyDeleteI actually feel sad for Diaz Vivar. He's got that "I'm in over my head and don't know what to do" look on his face. He's completely lost on the pitch,just going through the motions, wanting it all to just be over.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't help him either that he lacks what his fellow countryman Carlos Amarilla exuded during his time. Confidence, attitude, personality, and backbone.
DeleteVery insecure referee.
ReplyDeleteThe tournament as a whole has been riddle with poorly officiated matches and VAR was straight rubbish.
ReplyDeleteI dont want to point fingers at someone and blame him,but I agree with most of the comments regarding Diaz's performance.
ReplyDeleteHe had no control from the start,yes matches between these two will always be tough,but at some point you have to control it.
In this match,Diaz had no control,was very nervous and almost every decision he took,made players angrier,especially Argentinians.
I would say even Heber Lopes better controled their 2016 match.
Hopefully in the future we will better refereeing from Diaz.
Is it possible, that Messi said something offensive?
ReplyDeleteAgain? That seems to be the go to excuse every time he gets sent off.
DeleteRef Highlights from the Argentina v Chile game refereed by Mario Díaz
ReplyDeletehttps://vk.com/video424113568_456239034
Messi did not join the rest of his team-mates as they collected their medals on the podium after the final whistle and the attacker was furious as he spoke to reporters in the mixed zone.
ReplyDeleteI didn’t go to the podium because we shouldn’t be part of the corruption and lack of respect,’ he said.
‘We were meant for more but they didn’t let us be in the final. The corruption and the refs didn’t allow the people to enjoy and football is ruined.
‘The corruption and the referees didn’t allow us to be in the final. You have to say the truth.’
He added: ‘Brazil champions? No doubt. Sadly, I think it’s set up for Brazil.
‘Hopefully the refs and VAR will have nothing to do with it and Peru will be able to compete because they have the team to do it.
‘But I see it as difficult.’
-I dont care how good you are,you can't blame someone else because you and your team didnt succed.
I understand, frustration and anger is still there after their defeat to Brazil,but to say these things is just not right.
So CONMEBOL and other refs are to blame for their poor performance against Colombia,Paraguay and Brazil,whenever they lose the others are to blame.
They will never blame themselves and their poor atitude,dirty plays and rough tackles.
Also,every decision against them is constant complaints and furios moments by Argentinians.
We can all remember how dirty and without respect they played at WC,especially against Croatia and France when Irmatov and Faghani were in charge, maybe they're corrupted too :) ?
Disgusting behaviour by one of the sport‘s greatest. OK, some decisions did not go his way but to say those words in his position (he is a hero for millions of people around the world) is inexcusable. He behaves like a small child and has absolutely no self criticism. Why are always referee to blame? Why are they corrupt as soon as they make wrong decisions? I hope Messi gets fined for his words but I am not too hopeful about that...
DeleteHow many suspension games is Messi facing? I would say 2 for the red card and 4 more minimum for his words after the game.
DeleteYes, M and Jonas. What he said is unacceptable. Hope he wil get stict punishments but unfortunately not very likely.
DeleteAlso,I would like to add that Messi had no problem taking CL medal in 2009.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAround 11th minute clear YC forgiven.
ReplyDeleteYes Tobar opted for a verbal warning but I would have liked to see a booking there. It was a late tacke on the opponent's ankle.
DeleteNow correct YC to BRA #9
Doesn't this PK go against the new interpretation of handling?
ReplyDeleteI think it does as well. However I believe everybody expects a penalty here. This would make a very interesting case for debate.
DeleteMy decision according to the LotG would be no penalty, but it would be hard to get it accepted, especially with Brazil benefitting from it.
So allow everybody else's expectations and not the LOTG dictate our calls?
DeleteWrong.
According to the laws of the game never handball. According to fans and players super clear handball. Therefore IFAB sould just be smart and say ''if the ball hits a players arm who performs a sliding tackle it is punishable'' and the debate is over.
DeleteWhat is Thiago Silva supposed to do with his arm there?
ReplyDeleteBrave Tobar. Why VAR doubted his original call for a handball. I like that Tobar stayed with his original PK call.
ReplyDeleteJonas Eriksson said it could maybe just be "theatre" to go and check the screen with the controversy that has been earlier on the tournament.
DeleteWrong call according to IFAB. Clearly that's a natural position since it's a supporting arm. Try making a tackle without the arm there. It's dangerous and impossible.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteNiko, I'd like to hear your rebuttal for the sake of the discussion.
DeleteFrom the IFAB website
ReplyDelete"it is natural for a player to put their arm between their body and the ground for support when falling."
I guess we'll never know anymore what is a deliberate handball and what not.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Words are added. Words are removed. Words are moved around. But the end result is the same. Confusion.
DeletePage 74 says supporting arm is natural position. The arm of Silva is completely natural to me, of course players and fans expect a penalty there but not IFAB: See this pic: https://ibb.co/86GDRTc
ReplyDeletehttp://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/802/132814_310519_LotG_19_20_v4.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0m-pQgnuogOHuwKYP8yTgOfCpI4D0jsADdT5k4XWCU6mr0VBKOdjmTY98
Thank you Victor. That was the image I was looking for.
DeleteNo, IFAB made this clear. We know: this was not handball under the new laws. Referee simply disregarded it.
ReplyDeleteThat's unacceptable. Tobar was wrong initially for whistling it and then he doubled down on his mistake after having the opportunity to watch it again.
DeleteEspecially with the new handball laws this is not punishable. Supporting arm. As the link Victor showed from IFAB themselves. These decisions ruin it for other refs who don't call these...
ReplyDeletehttps://ibb.co/86GDRTc
Just take a look at the picture that Victor so kindly shared with us. It can't be explained any clearer than that. In this case, it is a "black and white" call. No grey area there.
ReplyDeleteFor the ones that had doubts like me whether the new rules apply to 2019 Copa America or not, they do as expected.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.sport.es/es/noticias/copa-america-2019/nuevas-reglas-del-futbol-copa-america-2019-7478067
So I think the penalty was a mistake. Otherwise no major issues for Tobar, except from a missed YC in the early stages.
I went to a training course in the UK on Thursday and this handball was a an example of what is not classified as penalty. It is not black and white. Big mistake.
DeleteA mistake further compounded by the fact that he had a second chance to look at it and correct his initial wrong call.
DeleteThe Peruvian players need to be very cautious. Tobar will be looking for even the most minute reason to "even" things out.
ReplyDeleteSpot on :) .
DeleteThey got penalty.
Somethings never change in CONMEBOL.
DeleteNow 2nd YC to Jesus.I dont know about that, to me very soft.
ReplyDeleteI would say that it's quite interesting that all crucial decisions today are against Brazil,day after Argentinians were complaining about coruption.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteUnacceptable PK decision. That is simply disregarding the LotG in a very obvious way because after the new laws implemention this is not a subjective matter, it is mostly factual. VAR tried to teach him the laws with no success. ;) I hope the discutable decisions against Brazil is not because of the Argentinian protests. If yes - I have no words... ridiculous that one country can impact the refereeing of a match. Besides the PK an OK performance.
ReplyDeleteCant wait for next year's refereeing in Argentina and Colombia.
ReplyDeleteDo you expect to see anything different? It'll be the same "dinosaurs" pulling the strings.
DeleteIt will be interesting to see if their theory about coruption and refs favouring Brazil is true.
DeleteIf thats the case next year,then lives of refs would be in danger.
PK?
ReplyDeleteThe Peru player is shielding his GK.
Well it's a fitting end to tournament full of referee blunders. What are two more?
Even worse, an arrogant referee who is unable to correct himself when given the opportunities.
The Brazil PK was the correct call, the Peruvian defender impedes the Brazilian attacker by moving into his path when not within playing distance of the ball.
DeleteTobar vs. VAR = 2 : 0
DeleteSoccer guy: The ball is within playing distance. It was just in front of them. A lot smarter not to call it since it was a shoulder to shoulder challenge.
DeleteTribute to Heber Lopes and best ever final refereed, Copa America Centenario 2016.
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/TyCSports/status/1147984258608304128
ReplyDeleteGabriel Jesus beats VAR monitor.
Gabriel Jesus should be ashamed of himself. For striking a "teammate" ;-)
DeleteHeber Lopes at least was somehow funny to watch.
ReplyDeleteCopa América refereeing doesn't even.
He had way more challenging match than this one was tonight.
DeleteAnd remember, he had no VAR help at all and in that match VAR was needed.
And he was better. He stayed true to himself, his style and the LOTG.
DeleteThe thing for me is this, the Law says: "it is usually not an offense when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, **but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body**." I'm not sure what they mean by "laterally or vertically away from the body." To me, both in the image you posted and in the PK awarded by Tobar, the arm is extended vertically away from the body. As I read the Law, it seems like these are clear penalties... further clarification is needed from the IFAB.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how to assess this performance. Having in mind what happened in ARGCHI, Roberto HAS TO be praised for game and players management - calming down the players in very respectful but also firm manner consistently through the whole match was something outstanding.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, there is decisions making which was very poor, at least in my humble opinion. Both penalties are plainly wrong - supporting arm and fair body challenge - and it looked like Roberto didn't want to allow any questions to his mind when being invited for on-field reviews.
Missed YC for reckless studs tackle at the beginning and simply wrong cautions in 68' and 70' (second YC/RC) for maximum careless body challenges. Then, a late body challenge that could've been cautioned in 85' is not punished.
Well... excellent or terrible? The truth lies somewhere in between.
To be completely honest, I think it was a poor performance by the Chilean referee, simply because of his decision making, because as you pointed out: the three key-match incidents were wrong:
Delete1 - penalty for Peru and as we can all see on the picture shared by Victor, is a clear and obvious error and in times where football is played with VAR, such a decision cannot be backed. Of course, given the corruption allegations from the last days and a penalty being refused in favour of Brazil in case of handball (which many people do not understand), but we cannot be sure whether the referee had this in mind or not.
2 - Gabriel Jesus' 2YC is never a caution for me, it is simply a careless body challenge as you say it.
3 - penalty for Brazil is also rather wrong for my taste, as I assessed it as well as a fair body challenge and nothing more. However, if Tobar decides to whistle this penalty, one must raise the question whether we can speak of a potential DOGSO and then of RC (because then he would say that it is not a genuine attempt to play the ball).
In any case, not sure if I'm looking forward to Copa América next year with this type of refereeing... :/
I totally agree with you Stake...
DeleteBy that they mean straight up or straight horizontally. The pictures shows straight down, therefore it's pretty clear to me what they mean.
ReplyDeleteI didn't see the first yellow for Gabriel Jesus but I'm not too fussed with the second one. Reckless jump/charge.
ReplyDeleteJust my personal interpretation.
DeleteFirst one was dangerous tackle...Totally deserved YC.
DeleteIn my opinion both penalties are wrong. I think the handball is not punishable and in the second case there isn't a clear foul by defender, the opponent makes something as well. Play on natural solution.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, both are supportable calls and VAR intervention is therefore wrong. For what I watched at this Copa America if the level of officiating was low, use of VAR was even worse.
How can the handling call be supportable? There is literally a mirror image picture put out by IFAB. That clearly says it's not punishable handling.
DeleteBeyond that, CONMEBOL has 1 year to try and fix everything that went so wrong at this tournament. For starters they need to develope more trusted referee's to handle the BIG matches. Pitana, Roldan, Tobar and Cunha can't do it all.
Because with so many interpretations about handballs, one can't assess this decision as clear and obvious mistake, only scenario in which this is possible for handballs, is when arm is 100% close to body. Unluckily this is the consequence of the big chaos we have about this rule.
DeleteOkay so I asked IFAB what they think about this handball law. If it matters if a player is making a sliding tackle or falling, in regards of the Silva penalty, this is their answer:
ReplyDelete''We would draw you attention to the word 'falling' which is crucial - if a player is already on the ground and then moves/slides along the ground then the player is no longer 'falling' so the 'support' is no longer 'instinctve'.''
In other words. THe penalty is incorrect. Silva was not already on the ground. He was ''falling''. Therefore no penalty.
DeleteJust trying to summarise my impressions after this edition of Copa America and the possible developments that CONMEBOL referees will have on an international level, by each country. I must admit I did not have the chance to watch so many games, but I am trying to objectively collect as many information I can from our comments on the blog and the reports on Arbitro Internacional.
ReplyDeleteARGENTINA
Three referees attended 2019 Copa America (Pitana, Vigliano, Loustau). but none of them will be able to attend the next world cup due to age limits. The only younger referee that seems to be able to make it to Qatar 2022 is Fernando Rapallini, who performed well with some areas for improvement at Under 20 World Cup, according to the observers. As we cannot imagine Argentina without a referee at a World Cup, we should expect his selection, unless anything big happens from here to 2022.
BOLIVIA
Referees from Bolivia seem to have very low consideration among the refereeing committee and CONMEBOL in general. Gery Vargas was included in the list and despite having participated to the Copa America Centenario in 2016 he was not appointed for any single game. Raul Orosco also seems to have lost his chances years ago.
BRAZIL
Probably the country with the highest amount of opportunities right now. Wilton Sampaio seems to be the favourite at the moment, and he was reported to be very good in his QF between Uruguay and Peru a few weeks ago. Raphael Claus and Anderson Daronco are also referees for the future. The former reached SF at under 20 WC, despite showing some limitations in his communication skills and card management. The latter also did not fully convince in the last few months. His only performance at Copa America was assessed as below expectations.
CHILE
Roberto Tobar is one of the raising stars of South American refereeing, as proved by the designation for the final game of 2019 Copa America. However, his performance was affected by some major mistakes in foul detection and disciplinary control. He still seems in good shape to represent Chile at the next world cup, but this performance might bring back in the game Julio Bascuñan, who has never been really supported at CONMEBOL and FIFA level, but has proved to be a rather reliable referee in the last years.
COLOMBIA
Wilmar Roldan’s position as the best Colombian referee does not seem to be in danger, despite more than one disappointing performances at the last two World Cups. We questioned whether he deserves to be selected again for a World Cup or not, but I think that given the other options right now we can count him among the referees that will go to Qatar.
PARAGUAY
After Enrique Caceres’s retirement, Diaz de Vivar seems the only possible replacement for Paraguay at high level at the moment. CONMEBOL seems to trust a lot this referee, having already assigned him to multiple Copa Sudamericana finals (which could be compared to Europa League for South America). Having followed his performances and assessment in the past few years, he has been doing overall a good job with very little negative performances. However, he has been highly criticised for his management of the 3rd place tie a few days ago. We will see if this will have impact on his development.
Sorry, Ecuador was omitted in this paragraph
DeleteECUADOR
After Roddy Zambrano's poor performance in the semi final - everyone seemed to agree on that, including Arbitro Internacional who assessed it as 6.5, one of the lowest scores I have ever seen - Ecuador probably lost its chances of having a referee at next World Cup. Carlos Orbe was not appointed in any game and does not seem ready for something big yet.
PERU
ReplyDeleteAnother country that seems to lack the committee’s trust. With Victor Carrillo never reaching a top level, Diego Haro has participated to 2017 Under 20 World Cup, not performing very well according to our readers. Since then, not much has highlighted his career, except from a 1st leg of the Copa Sudamericana Final in 2018. More crucially, his compatriot Carrillo has still been preferred to him at CONMEBOL level, which is not a good sign for him. Very hard to see any Peruvian referee at the top soon.
URUGUAY
For sure one of the country which is suffering most from the lack of new generation change. Reaching World Cup semi finals with Jorge Larrionda and Andres Cunha, and having Daniel Fedorczuk close to retirement - a very underrated referee in my opinion, who handled Argentina-Chile way better than Heber Lopes at the same tournament in 2016 - the next generation seems to pivot around Esteban Ostojich and Leodan Gonzalez. However, both of them did not get encouragements at recent tournaments (Copa America, U20 WC). If Cunha is not allowed to take part to the next world cup, Uruguay might be left without main referees in Qatar
VENEZUELA
I must say I was surprised not to see Jose Argote among the names listed for Copa America. I couldn’t find any source explaining why he was not selected. He seemed to be one of the most prospective referees at CONMEBOL in 2015, taking charge of one of the semifinals. After that, his progression has slowed down and he rarely was appointed to top games. His compatriots Jesus Valenzuela and Alexis Herrera have been left with low profile games at this edition of Copa America.
Let me just end with two questions I still have, whose answers should complete the analisys. I would be very happy to know your thoughts about this.
1. What happened to Jose Argote and why has he not been selected in any major tournament recently?
2. Will Andres Cunha be eligible for a place at 2022 World cup? Based on my calculation, he would be 46 in December 2022.
I guess that many hints of what will happen among CONMEBOL will be available at the next edition of Copa America, which will take place next year already
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