2022-23 UEFA Champions League Group Stage Matchday 4, referees in charge of Tuesday's games.
11 October 2022
18:45 CET - Copenhagen (Parken)
Copenhagen (DEN) - Manchester City | Group G
Referee: Artur Dias (POR) Assistant Referee 1: Rui Tavares (POR)
Assistant Referee 2: Paulo Soares (POR)
Fourth Official: Fabio Verissimo (POR)
Video Assistant Referee: Tiago Martins (POR)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Benoît Millot (FRA)
UEFA Referee Observer: Leslie Irvine (NIR)
UEFA Delegate: Balázs Makray (HUN)
18:45 CET - Haifa (Sammy Ofer Stadium)
Maccabi Haifa (ISR) - Juventus (ITA) | Group H
Referee: Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz (ESP)Assistant Referee 1: Pau Cebrián Devís (ESP)
Assistant Referee 2: Roberto Del Palomar (ESP)
Fourth Official: Mario Melero Lopez (ESP)
Video Assistant Referee: Juan Martinez Munuera (ESP)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Ricardo De Burgos (ESP)
UEFA Referee Observer: Jørn West Larsen (DEN)
UEFA Delegate: Andrey Medintsev (BUL)
21:00 CET - Zagreb (Stadion Maksimir)
Dinamo Zagreb (CRO) - Salzburg (AUT) | Group E
Referee: Tobias Stieler (GER) Assistant Referee 1: Christian Gittelmann (GER)
Assistant Referee 2: Eduard Beitinger (GER)
Fourth Official: Martin Petersen (GER)
Video Assistant Referee: Christian Dingert (GER)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Benjamin Brand (GER)
UEFA Referee Observer: Mehmet Murat Ilgaz (TUR)
UEFA Delegate: Marcin Stefanski (POL)
21:00 CET - Milan (Stadio Giuseppe Meazza)
AC Milan (ITA) - Chelsea (ENG) | Group E
Referee: Daniel Siebert (GER) Assistant Referee 1: Jan Seidel (GER)
Assistant Referee 2: Rafael Foltyn (GER)
Fourth Official: Daniel Schlager (GER)
Video Assistant Referee: Marco Fritz (GER)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Harm Osmers (GER)
UEFA Referee Observer: Fritz Stuchlik (AUT)
UEFA Delegate: Eduard Dervishaj Nelaj (ESP)
21:00 CET - Warsaw (Municipal Stadium of Legia Warszaw)
Shakhtar Donetsk (UKR) - Real Madrid (ESP) | Group F
Referee: Orel Grinfeeld (ISR)Assistant Referee 1: Roy Hassan (ISR)
Assistant Referee 2: Idan Yarkoni (ISR)
Fourth Official: Eitan Shmuelevitz (ISR)
Video Assistant Referee: Marco Di Bello (ITA)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: David Fuxman (ISR)
UEFA Referee Observer: William Young (SCO)
UEFA Delegate: Adonis Procopiou (CYP)
21:00 CET - Glasgow (Celtic Park)
Celtic (SCO) - Leipzig (GER) | Group F
Referee: Halil Umut Meler (TUR)Assistant Referee 1: Mustafa Emre Eyisoy (TUR)
Assistant Referee 2: Cevdet Komurcuoglu (TUR)
Fourth Official: Arda Kardeşler (TUR)
Video Assistant Referee: Massimiliano Irrati (ITA)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Paolo Valeri (ITA)
UEFA Referee Observer: Manuel Díaz Vega (ESP)
UEFA Delegate: Myrsini Psarropoulou (GRE)
21:00 CET - Dortmund (BVB Stadion)
Borussia Dortmund (GER) - Sevilla (ESP) | Group G
Referee: Srdjan Jovanović (SRB)Assistant Referee 1: Uroš Stojković (SRB)
Assistant Referee 2: Milan Mihajlović (SRB)
Fourth Official: Novak Simović (SRB)
Video Assistant Referee: Fedayi San (SUI)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Dennis Higler (NED)
UEFA Referee Observer: Haim Jakov (ISR)
UEFA Delegate: Peter Oskam (NED)
21:00 CET - Paris (Parc des Princes)
Paris Saint Germain (FRA) - Benfica (POR) | Group H
Referee: Michael Oliver (ENG)Assistant Referee 1: Stuart Burt (ENG)
Assistant Referee 2: Simon Peter Bennett (ENG)
Fourth Official: Andrew Madley (ENG)
Video Assistant Referee: Stuart Attwell (ENG)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Tomasz Kwiatkowski (POL)
UEFA Referee Observer: Karen Nalbandyan (ARM)
UEFA Delegate: Gijs De Jong (NED)
Mostly normal appointments, but surprisingly "small" games for Soares Dias and Mateu, I think.
ReplyDeleteExactly what I was thinking. And, finally, Siebert is back.
DeleteThere is a clear difference between Copenhagen - City and Maccabi - Juventus. While for the game in Denmark it is very hard to think that an Elite referee was needed, I can understand the choice by committee with Mateu in Israel. The game is the last chance for Juventus to qualify, they must win. Maccabi put in trouble the Italian side in Turin, so the atmosphere in Haifa will be even more challenging for the referee, extremely important for the standings. So, for this reason you have Mateu. Very big game under the eyes of committee, but of course, having said that, I must agree that if we isolate it from the context, we should treat this match as option for Category 1. Still, the particular eye for Italian teams is very present in committee.
DeleteAbout Soareas Dias, this assignment (Rumsas in last game at home) for City) explains us what has been his problem over the years, he never found a long period of consistency and good performances were always isolated. I think basically a more than good referee for staying in Elite, but not at the level of the very big names and I think he will not reach this status.
About the rest of assignments, extremely crucial game for Jovanovic as we could expect, after very good performances in recent times. The choice of a so trusted referee explains us how muhc trust got Mariani, as Category 1, getting the previous tie in Seville. Still, different situation in group, but a quite good assignment for the Italian. He didn't show a good performance, though. We will see the Serbian.
Group F confirms to be used in a very particular way by committee: after the debuts, now time for Umut Meler to recover and get games after the injury and then Grinfeeld, at moment not in a best form in the other game. The policy of appointments in this group is very clear, it is treated differently from the others.
Crucial game for Oliver in Paris, while Siebert will be back in a big game after his poor period, that lasted a quite long time.
Stieler finds more room in Champions League after Ayrtekin's retirement. An observation about this fact: very often referees are not based on how they really perform, but committee has already the plans in mind, where to appoint them, whether in EL, CL or ECL, based on the availability of an assignment in a certain competition. They have just to wait and hope that there will be room for them. I say that also because if one wants to analyze the real consideration by committee in regard to Stieler, well, it seems impossible to come to a final judgment. All said, of course, is only my opinion.
Speaking about Siebert, I am very curious about how he will perform. Indeed, it is a big match. Internationally but especially nationally, his form really is on the lowest level since a long time. I don‘t want to exaggerate but I would even say on the lowest level since his international breakthrough. His performance in Bundesliga on Saturday was also not convincing. What one can observe is that he tries to adapt his style, being a bit "angrier“ with the players, which very likely is a result of the loss of match control in international matches. So, only some weeks before the WC, it could be a crucial game for Siebert himself.
DeleteTwo situations from Milan - Juventus (Daniele Orsato).
ReplyDeletePossible handball (VAR didn't intervene):
https://streamable.com/ihpgt0
Despite of the position of arms behind back, that's a punishable handball if you ask me. Clear movement to block ball, OK, mayube he had planned to do that by body, but still arm was hit. I think this is a very rare case in which you can say putting arms behind back is not enough to "forgive" player. There is to me a clear malice in that action. In case of whistle and penalty, I'm quite sure VAR wouldn't have intervened, still difficult to explain to people how to confirm a penalty with arms behind back, but for me definitely punishable.
I have read many different opinions, including who said that a VAR intervention was expected to give penalty (I must disagree on that, position of the arms is a more than strong argument, to support, at least, the call). I think that body volume was increased deliberately.
https://streamable.com/ggeprd
Foul before the corner that led to the opening goal of the game. Missed clear foul, maybe Orsato didn't expect such quick action by Milan player and he wasn't ready to assess properly the situation. More generally, I see that in recent games Orsato is allowing too many contacts. It is not the first time. I would say that the physical condition can be a reason for that, but surely not the only reason.
Without the corner kick before the goal, clear foul in the APP for me, and VAR intervention expected. Unlucky circumstance also because not at AR's side, but a replay shows us that AR2 from the other half could have maybe seen that?
I agree regarding the handball. You can see, that in the last moment, the upper arm moves slightly but decisively away from the body, so that's a strong argument for penalty. However it remains subjective, whether you consider it deliberate or not.
DeleteMaybe a situation, where a OFR would make sense, if the referee had not the full perception (which he couldn't really, given the angles).
Actually even two fouls by the attacking player, I think. Also the action against the player, who puts the ball out of play, looks like clear tripping.
I watched the full game yesterday and fully agree with your analysis.
DeleteFrom a pure refereeing point of view, this handball is as clear as day IMO. There is a clear intention in that slight elbow movement Vlahović performed, the elbow goes slightly out of the body, but just enough to block the ball's trajectory. I am even 99% sure that he did this intentionally, knowing that his hands are behind his back and the arm is stuck to the body enough to warrant a play on call from Orsato. And it seems Orsato explained the same thing to Giroud, arm stuck to the body, elbow not out enough, however I disagree in this particular situation (very particular, IMO). On the other hand, explaining all of this to the general public would probably be impossible, it seems to me most of the people agree with play on here. Therefore, certainly not clear and obvious for the VAR. Cunning move by Vlahović here.
Regarding the foul situation, Philipp is right, two fouls in the same action by Hernandez IMO. And I agree it should have been a mandatory VAR intervention had the goal been scored, the foul on Cuadrado is particularly clear. However, it seems Orsato was 100% sure about his decision, visibly arguing with Cuadrado and Bonucci afterwards (I just love his style, btw).
Generally speaking, quite a shaky performance from Orsato, especially in the 1H. His foul detection/recognition was pretty lacking IMO. I cannot say if the reason is his physical condition, but you are probably right again, Chefren. However, still an undisputed authority on the FoP, as usual.
Painful situation for Gözöbüyuk. Still no matches, while being fit and active in The Netherlands. From a QF in CL to nothing at all.
ReplyDeleteMostly sensible appointments. I don't like the treatment of Stieler, who is in my opinion a good referee.
Stieler actually got a quite good match given the group situation, where Dinamo could even jump to place 1 by winning this game.
DeleteGözübüyük should hope for a EL match this week to then be an option for CL MD 5/6. But of course only possible, if he has passed the test.
Yes, I see that the match is potentially hot. However, even despite that, it's not the match for a big elite referee, who even officiated in the KO stages of CL.
DeleteAnd yes, it would be good to see Serdar in EL or even ECL this matchday.
Not sure about how accurate the info, but it was said that Guzubuyuk did not pass both LOTG-test and video test during summer course, and failed video test again in second attempt.
DeleteCurious when we see him again.
I've just realized, that Oliver has Arsenal-Liverpool today. PGMOL doesn't really protect their referees before international appointments - differently to most other associations.
ReplyDeleteAnd he's just not given a penalty for handball that I suggest would have been given in Uefa competition
DeleteI think he was advised as played from close distance. But rest of the world, this would be a penalty.
DeletePenalty appeal
Deletehttps://streamable.com/xvkzqk
Second goal. Very funny advantage signal by Oliver ;)
https://streamable.com/6vt88d
Very clear penalty, VAR intervention expected.I don't know who was VAR but surely not a UEFA one...
DeleteVAR: Darren England
DeleteHow can Oliver brandish YC so easily for timewasting but when there is altercation and brawls,nothing at all,just talking?
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeletePenalty for me also, I was surprised by the lack of VAR intervention. Yes, the ball comes from a short distance, however the defender's arm is too high and positioned too widely (I don't think his crouching movement can justify an arm so widely out). England is usually good as a VAR IMO, also an international VMO, however this is a serious mistake for my taste.
DeleteOliver was ok in general IMO, but M is right in his comment, he should have definitely booked Henderson and Xhaka for that altercation. However, it seems to me he has found a typical "English" solution for the whole situation.
PGMOL doesn't really have anyone else to use at the moment, you can't protect your best referees when they are the only available ones for big fixtures. Taylor had Arsenal last week and nobody else is on form, or dare I say good enough (maybe trusted enough is a better turn of phrase).
DeleteThe other problem is a Sunday/Tuesday turnaround for Oliver which is hard for two domestic games, let alone with the international travel involved.
Craig Pawson was available for the game. Not refereed either liverpool or arsenal for a while. Interestingly Simon Hooper is doing Man United vs Spurs in midweek
Deletehttps://streamin.me/v/372ee84a
ReplyDeleteWrong OFR in Rome from Banti for SFP. I'm sorry i don't have the full episode but only this link for those who didn't watch live.
I agree with you, I was about to post that. He invited Prontera to OFR only because of the point of contact, missing the rest. How both players joined the challenge is very important to analyze because Belotti, Roma player, can have some responsibilities about what happens later. Rather an unlucky circumstance for me, could have happened the contrary in this context. Therefore I think no red card for Lecce player, because he didn't make a single and dangerous action by himself against opponent, rather a mutual collision with this result.
DeleteWe talked about that many times on the blog, I liked Mikael's reasoning about this problem, and the fact that very often VARs are too much focused on the particular, missing the context. It is very important to know how a contact is created by both sides. In this case, Banti analyzed only the leg hitting opponent in the very last part of the full action.
About Prontera, not a good performance in my opinion.
A very soft penalty to be reported as well, supported by VAR, but in this case Banti should be right (no VAR stuff).
Abraham from Roma put the leg clearly to get contact and then he celebrated the whistle. Very sad to see that nowadays attackers can create penalties even "blocking" VAR interventions. But I must also admit that for the Italian football culture, this is enough for a whistle and a clear penalty, totally different from UEFA's points of views in many RAPs we saw.
Today we had many mistakes and soft penalties in all games.
Cremonese Napoli: soft penalty and easy free kicks, not the best performance.
Monza Spezia: a referee at his debut with a phantom penalty call for handball at the beginning, Irrati intervened and penalty was annulled.
Salernitana Verona: wrong penalty for handball annulled by VAR, then missed penalty at the end of the game, big VAR mistake in this case, difficult control and very hot atmosphere in the last minutes.
Torino Empoli: wrong red card at the beginning of the game, for an alleged SFP, OFR and correct decision with YC.
I must say that only Doveri saved himself in Udinese - Atalanta...
BTW Sorry if I bother you with all that serie A stuff :D
To add, Banti was back in serie A exactly in this round, after the famous Juventus - Salernitana. AIA was quick in making statements about the fact that they had not cameras to assess properly the incident, assuming that VAR had not responsibilites, but the management of Banti by Rocchi (out from serie A until today) says the contrary.
DeleteTogether with Nasca (VAR in Salerno today), they are simply not good for being VAR PRO. Years and years have now shown that without doubts.
@M, it is typical Oliver. Awful to see how he handles time wasting and Xhaka-Henderson fight.
ReplyDeleteSiebert was really good in Augsburg, glad he got a big match again .
Its reasons like that which lead to him loosing control in UEFA games like Real vs Juventus. It works in England but not in Europe.
DeleteIf he performs like that in Qatar then he is on the first plane on the next day back to England.
I saw that Taylor was 4th Official at Everton-Man Utd. Is this a more common practice in England than in the rest of Europe or was this an isolate appointment? I don't remember to have seen Turpin or Orsato, for example, in this role too recently.
ReplyDeleteTaylor doesn't do VAR though. Oliver does hence he rarely does 4th official duties. When he isn't refereeing Taylor does 4th official duties.
DeleteIn Germany, the UEFA Elite referees nearly never work as 4th officials and even the other FIFA referees only rarely do. E.g. in this season, only in 4 out of 81 games, the 4th official was a FIFA referee.
DeleteOf the 10 games this weekend coming up 6 of the games have a FIFA referee as the 4th official. 2 of those are going to be FIFA as well. This includes, Taylor, Oliver, Kavanagh and Attwell all involved in UCL games regularly.
DeleteVery interesting and complicated situation happened this weekend in Giresun-Besiktas match in Turkish Super League. The situation is very complicated due many players involved and in took roughly 3-4min for VAR to resolve.
ReplyDeleteMatch min 14:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8eb0et
The goal scored is cancelled after OFR due to offside and penalty given for previous infringement (foot to head as I see). The ref played advantage for that infringement, clearly by his hand gestures, but apparently the goal was offside. So VAR suggested OFR for this. Referee is Yasar Kemal Ugurlu, FIFA.
I think the correct decision is reached at the end so good job by the ref and VAR. But my question would be; Is OFR needed for this situation? Offside is a factual decision and the previous infringement is clearly seen by the referee so couldn't he just cancel the goal and give penalty directly?
It looks like a 'decision selling' OFR to me.
Off topic but looks.as though VAR will finally be coming to Scotland. Looks set to roll out, potentially in 2 weeks time after training and testing is all complete
ReplyDelete[#MundialSub17Femenino] India vs Estados Unidos
ReplyDeleteA: Susana Corella (ECU)
A1: Enedina Caudillo (MEX)
A2: Nataly Arteaga (COL)
4to: Dorsaf Ganouati (TUN)
VAR: Salomé Di Iorio (ARG)
[#MundialSub17Femenino] Marruecos vs Brasil
A: Edita Mirabidova (UZB)
A1: Joanna Charaktis (AUS)
A2: Kristina Sereda (UZB)
4to: Dorsaf Ganouati (TUN)
VAR: Casey Reibelt (AUS)
[#MundialSub17Femenino] Chile vs Nueva Zelanda
A: Rebecca Welch (ENG)
A1: Natalie Aspinall (ENG)
A2: Franca Overtoom (NED)
4to: Zulma Quiñónez (PAR)
VAR: Frida Mia Klarlund (DEN)
[#MundialSub17Femenino] Alemania vs Nigeria
A: Myriam Marcotte (CAN)
A1: Mijensa Rensch (SUR)
A2: Ivett Santiago (CUB)
4to: Zulma Quiñónez (PAR)
VAR: Carol Anne Chenard (CAN)
[#MundialSub17Femenino] Canadá vs Francia
A: Bouchra Karboubi (MAR)
A1: Fatiha Jermoumi (MAR)
A2: Soukaina Hamdi (MAR)
4to: Zulma Quiñónez (PAR)
VAR: Letticia Viana (SWZ)
[#MundialSub17Femenino] Japón vs Tanzania
A: Anahí Fernández (URU)
A1: Luciana Mascaraña (URU)
A2: Jassett Kerr-Wilson (JAM)
4to: Rebecca Welch (ENG)
VAR: Ekaterina Koroleva (USA)
[#MundialSub17Femenino] México vs China
A: Maria Sole Ferrieri (ITA)
A1: Francesca Di Monte (ITA)
A2: Élodie Coppola (FRA)
4to: Odette Hamilton (JAM)
VAR: Omar Al Ali (UAE)
[#MundialSub17Femenino] España vs Colombia
A: Iuliana Demetrescu (ROU)
A1: Mihaela Țepușă (ROU)
A2: Anita Vad (HUN)
4to: Ivana Martinčić (CRO)
VAR: Tatiana Guzmán (NCA)
thanks as always to @ArbitroInternacional
Artur called for ofr to a handball by Mahrez
ReplyDeleteI think impossible to see for him, good call by VAR. Personally, when I see such kinds of handballs, I always think that this rule is against the referees, sometimes it is absolutely impossible even to notice that a touch existed!
DeleteHm, not really clear and obvious for my taste as the player doesn't expect that his opponent doesn't play the ball and then tries to avoid the handball. Also not obvious as nobody on the field expected that call.
DeleteBut we knew already, that there are some differences in our opinions on that topic. :)
I don't understand this OFR. It seems unequivocally wrong. It's accidental handling, right? So it didn't lead directly to a goal being scored, therefore it's not punishable.
DeleteOr are they trying to say this was deliberate or his body was unnaturally bigger? Neither seem remotely true.
Uefa do not really consider “unnaturally” very important criterium as it seems. Almost every arm out of the body, making the body bigger is considered punishable…
DeleteGood to see that I am not the only one doubting the call.
DeleteI think, they consider the body to be unnaturally bigger as the arm position was not justified by the player's general movement. This is somehow true, because the player was standing still, so the arm position could not be part of any movement from this point of view.
However as far as I know the interpretation, this part of the rule should not be applied, when the player can't expect the ball and has no advantage of playing the ball with his hand.
Therefore it's overall grey area for me, but nothing for VAR.
min#10.
ReplyDeletefoul badly charged by Mateu that almost made it 2-0 in favor of Maccabi
Another OFR to Artur. Now for a penalty to Man City
ReplyDeleteAgain, difficult to see, but Soares Dias has already two crucial situations against him in first half...
DeleteExactly, difficult situations for him :/
DeleteCrazy match for Artur ANOTHER OFR
ReplyDeleteThird OFR for Soares Dias, but this time the foul should have been spotted live.
ReplyDeleteThree OFR in a half is a nightmare...
In 7 minutes, crazy
DeleteMateu well by not sanctioning a penalty for handball by Cuadrado (involuntary handball)
ReplyDeleteUEFA predicted well that the early games today need some of the most experienced referees..
ReplyDeleteStill absolutely impossible to expect this in Copenhagen, City missed a penalty and they saw a disallowed goal, so also a bit of good luck for Danish team, while in Israeal I can ensure Maccabi is showing great football against Juventus...
Deleteall three clips of the first half
ReplyDeletedisallowed goal
https://streamable.com/0hwnks
PK handball
https://streamable.com/55yuic
RC
https://streamable.com/4gept1
Unlucky Dias at first 2 OFR then the third one he should whistle live. Yes Chefren a nightmare start for Dias. He should be very STRONG mentally at the second half to not make it worse.
DeleteHandball at the penalty is clearer than for the disallowed goal, because here the defender could expect the ball more and makes no attempt to avoid the contact. Furthermore arm above shoulder is nearly always called. Only doubt is, whether it was in the punishable area of the arm, but I think, that is a narrow yes. So correct OFR, I think.
DeleteDisallowed goal: I'm really in trouble assessing this handball. It seems purely accidental. It also didn't directly lead to the goal being scored. The only explanation I can think of is that the position of the hand is not justifiable as a natural part of the player's movement, however it is not clear and certainly not obvious. Definitely no blame on Dias though.
DeletePK: I fully agree with Philipp here, arm above the shoulder, expected ball, the player should be fully responsible if the ball hits his arm like this IMO. And yes, a very marginal call regarding the area of the arm which was hit, but it seems like a correct decision.
RC: The only situation to really blame Dias for, IMO. Clear RC for DOGSO for me.
67' Penalty appeal in Haifa, Mateu Lahoz very convinced about play on. The replay shows that his decision is supportable, but penalty could have been whistled. Kind of push with both arms but quite soft.
ReplyDeletefirst clear error of the Spanish referee
DeleteMore a foul than not IMO, but not a mandatory VAR intervention.
DeleteAs for me it's a foul, but not 100% clear error, so I could back no VAR intervention here.
Deletehttps://streamable.com/6zeeje
DeletePenalty appeal.
I have totally different opinion. Clear pushing with both arms with no intention at all for the ball, PK should be awarded here. Also OFR is mandatory IMO. We still see Lahoz making gesture to everyone even Juventus bench that he saw everything and that is not a foul. He really doesn't like OFR :) I'm pretty sure that with another referee on FoP we would have a different approach by the VAR.
Mate its PK with red card for dogso...
DeleteThe only argument against penalty is, that in the last moment Cuadrado makes an unneccessary step in the direction of his opponent and thereby increases the intensity of the "crash".
DeleteBut this might already be enough for no intervention.
And yes, in case of foul, this is also DOGSO. Other defenders are too far behind.
DeleteBTW it is true that with his on-field gestures, Mateu Lahoz puts a VAR mentally out from a situation... it is very hard to intervene because the protocol is mostly about that. Still, an experienced VAR should go through that, in case of evident mistake, but not easy for the approach shown by referee.
DeleteAnother point is the view of Mateu during the challenge. He is far behind and when we see behind the goal camera im not sure he has a clear view, he has players in front who blocked him and i don't know why he was so convinced about no foul
DeleteTo me, he hates all the possible penalties in which he sees the attacker looking for a contact, trying to create it and similar. But very often he goes a bit far with this concept. In this case one can still agree with his decision, though. I didn't follow him recently in La Liga but maybe who does that, can confirm us that he acts in the same manner regarding penalties to be whistled in Spanis games?
DeletePerfect decision by Mateu, Cuadrado didn't fancy himself and tried only to win a penalty in the end; clear gestures as well, masterclass.
DeleteExcellence again from the Spaniard!
Well, what I see here is Cuadrado slowing down to a halt and then stepping towards the defender in order to accentuate the crash and win a penalty. Therefore, good decision by Mateu IMO. However, watching at the outcome, I fully understand the opposing view.
DeleteI guess if the attacker is in front of defender he has the right to change his movement direction and it is up to defender to pay attention to his action. If it was a collision I could understand no foul arguments but this was an obvious high intensity push. PK and RC missed
DeleteHe wasn't pointing at the spot I don't think, he was pointing at the point where the foul occurred. Just from where he was it would have been better if he just used the raised 'free kick' arm as this would have avoided confusion
ReplyDeleteSEMIFINALS CONCACAF LEAGUE 2022
ReplyDelete-Second Leg
LD Alajuelense vs Real España
REF: Ismail Elfath (USA)
AR1: Kyle Atkins (EE. UU.)
AR2: Logan Brown (EE. UU.)
4º: Ismel Cornejo (SLV)
CD Olimpia vs FC Motagua
REF: Iván Barton (SLV)
AR1: David Moran (SLV)
AR2: Zachari Zeegelaar (SUR)
4º: Juan Gabriel Calderón (CRC)
Artur Dias had an okay second half, the ofr prejudiced him today he could be better without that many ofr.
ReplyDeleteA calm second half was needed after all we saw in the first part of the game!
DeleteAgree Chefren!
DeleteYes. But first two call really difficult to catch not only for him but also for other big names. Third call should have called directly on field.
Deletevery physical game in Milan, Siebert has to be very focused because it is a game that can easily get out of hand, hopefully not
ReplyDeleteHe is too fussy for me, too many soft free kicks
DeletePenalty and RC by Siebert. Extremely soft holding... VAR should confirm because there is something in terms of possible foul, but this is a mistake in reality if you ask me.
ReplyDeleteNot a red in my opinion
Delete5 weeks to WorldCup...
DeleteSupportable decision, but it won't help Siebert's international standing after his weak last year. Hie style is normally quite lenient in Bundesliga, tonight's decisions are the opposite.
Deletepk + Rc
Deletehttps://streamable.com/4kq0q6
Very very soft. Siebert continues with ups and downs
Agree with others, very soft. In my opinion wrong decision. But for VAR to annul it was also difficult...
DeleteThis is not a soft penalty, but rather a wrong one IMO. I can't see anything except a normal contact here, too soft to be deemed a foul. Unfortunately, once whistled, it had to be a RC for DOGSO, however it was simply a wrong decision for my taste. And a very serious mistake because of the outcome.
DeleteTerrible mistake IMO
DeleteAm I taking crazy pills?
DeleteHe deliberately puts his hands on him three separate times. You can quite literally see how much force is in the first hold up on the shoulder, as Mount's legs slow and he has to fight through it. Ultimately, he gets off a poor shot on goal after being held three times.
It's a deliberate hold to prevent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity. If Mount had gone to ground, everyone would be lauding it without blinking an eye. We always claim we don't want players to simulate or embellish. Well, here's a player who tries to fight through three fouls and we want to reward him by... giving him nothing?
Put me alongside Markoo. This is a brave and correct decision.
I am often amazed at the nonsense people speak here......if in this case you see no reason for a penalty kick, then you are either wearing red-black glasses, or you have absolutely no understanding of the rules of the game, and most likely never refereed a football match yourself, but to talk about a wrong decision here...... is a real shame! I wonder about the objectivity here with certain people.....
DeleteFor me a clear PK + RC without any doubt, this holding is not finished after the first time, he even repeats that and I praise Siebert for his decision, esp. cause so many times refs ignore such fouls if the attacker gets up again or manages to stay on the floor and still trying to score, but with only a little chance because of the foul. The LOTG is absolutely clear here, his decision is brave and absolutely correct. Well done!
DeleteRather harsch to give a PK (and if you give it, it has to be RC). I would have prefered to play on, but VAR has to support
DeleteWould love to see it in real time. The slow motion shows a contact, however, when it comes to pulling, intensity and its outcome are the key considerations for not/whistling the PK and RC. One has to take into account similar incidents during the match, i.e. criteria. IMO no PK
DeleteSiebert wrong RC, PK and YC would be ok.
ReplyDeleteI agree
DeleteIf he decides to blow the whistle, I don't see any chances for YC.
DeleteRight @Raymus. If it's a foul, it's a red card. What's the argument for yellow?
DeleteSiebert demonstrating why he was recently designated to League D...
ReplyDeleteHe was never, what a nonsense.
Delete@Andrasch: I think, diego612 refers to his Estonia - Malta appointment in UEFA Nations League D in September.
DeleteAh, ok, thx, thats true
DeleteIf you ask me, a terrible start for Siebert. I wonder whether someone even wanted a penalty for this... It is a normal touch and definitely not worth a penalty + RC as a consequence. Heavy complaints by the Italians, I somehow understand them. But, without any aim to be too harsh, it fits in the overall "picture" of Siebert in these months. Probably he was too motivated to show that he is back. That is why I was saying I was curious about how he would perform. Quite sure that Siebert will be punished for this decision (especially if taken against an Italian team).
ReplyDeleteThe game is still in course and I see already fans writing to UEFA...
DeleteI can imagine, Chefren. The night at least has the potential to become a nightmare for Siebert. But I have to say, it did not come out of nowhere. We could see a referee clearly out of form being appointed for a big match...
DeleteWell, that's was very very very soft penalty, not a 100% error, but UEFA will not like this call, I think we would not see him in CL this year anymore. No one expected penalty there.
ReplyDeleteNow possible RC for SFP to Chelsea, and a very difficult game to control.
ReplyDeleteI predict a hot week for Roberto in Italian media after tonight matches of Juventus and Milan
DeleteDid Mateo Lahoz' performance in Haifa cause any discussions?
DeleteNot so much because Juventus deserved to lose the game. Still some questions about the possible penalty, but "background".
DeleteAbout Siebert, exactly the contrary...
I fear, if something more happens against Milan tonight, Italian press could even destroy Siebert's international career.
DeleteThat seems a little too dramatic. But I agree, that Siebert is going through a difficult phase with many low class matches in Bundesliga or even some 2nd League appointments. Let's see who WC is going for him.
DeleteAytekin retired, Stieler is a solid referee, but not more...who's the german alternative? The world's largest football federation (DFB) will always have an elite referee that will be appointed for big clashes... politics and so on...
"or even some 2nd League appointments" - That doesn't mean anything in Germany, every referee gets them, even Brych at the height of his career.
Delete@alternative: Zwayer seems to be doing quite good at the moment, so he should be the first alternative.
No, not Zwayer. I think he is done, on the very top international level. The board will for sure not promote a ref who was so close to a bribery case (even if it's been some years ago).
DeleteWe are saying about performances not about past events.
DeleteSiebert lost control. Oliver just whistled a penalty to PSG
ReplyDeleteOFR in Zagreb in order to evaluate an offside decision. Stieler initially decided that the attacker stood in the goalkeeper's line of vision but he rather did not. IMO a good decision by Dingert and Brand to invite Stieler to have a look...
ReplyDeleteAgreed, the goalkeepers's initial reaction proves he saw the ball and the shot, however it bounced off the defender's leg and changed trajectory.
DeleteAbout Siebert, it can be also a mental issue. Indeed, we all know that in his last CL game he missed some cards (to say it kindly...), so today, being back in this competition, maybe he wanted to show that he was ready to take such crucial decisions. In a doubt whether whistling the penalty or not, he decided for the call and RC for DOGSO, thinking about a possible clear situation.
ReplyDeleteAlso, still in my opinion, I think that appointing a referee in minor competitions because not in good form or as punishment, can be very often useless. Every game is a new page to be written and there are so many factors, that you can't be sure about what will happen. It's only up to referee and his strong mind to work on that.
Then, the last question would be how much Siebert is good or not after all we saw by him in the last two years... extremely hard to have a black or white answer here if you ask me.
The penalty decision was too poor. Siebert should have the confidence to assess the holding, see it himself, and decide "no, I've seen it, this is not enough, we play on". Weird situation where the *more* courageous option is play on (c.f. ESPUKR RC in WC06). UEFA should assess it as a crucial mistake - and rightly so.
DeleteThat being said, with some luck but also calling Milan's bluff, with consequent disciplinary and firmness, the German did manage to keep basically full control in the first half. But I think the 'downheartenedness' of the home side after this call is the explanation for much of that...
Good statement, but for me never a crucial mistake. Not a mistake at all. A harsh decision. But it takes more to define a mistake (and even more a crucial one).
DeleteSiebert had a (very) good season in Bundesliga, a solid season in CL and was surprisingly sent to European Championship last year. He had a good tournament, proving that he is able to handle matches in such a tournament. BUT the most difficult thing is to keep your form, to be consistently on a high level of refereeing. Kuipers and Brych, for instance, were on their international top level for years. It is not enough to show one good season. This is what Siebert has experienced. Now, Siebert has to find his form as he could not show what he has shown at EURO. He will have to make his experiences. Indeed, I am quite sure that he puts himself under pressure, trying to show his abilities only weeks before WC. But it makes all worse.
DeleteStill shameful mgmt how Rosetti destroyed Siebert in 21/22, I called this out from the very start, but we are where we are now.
DeleteTbh I don't even have to check the RefNetwork, I can assure you this will be assessed as:
- correct non-intervention
- refereeing mistake (7,9)
I watched Siebert's gestures in giving the penalty - somewhere between a bit reluctant and too panicky (maybe one too many WC comparison but see Castrilli in ROUCRO). Too many penalties are given by refs under this heading!! I really mean it when saying sometimes it *is* more courageous to see sth, be confident you've seen it right, and say not enough.
But I wouldn't be tooooo negative tbf. Still a little shaky in calls, but he did well to keep a hand on the 1H, and in some ways that was much more like the excellent appearances by him in eg. PORTUR playoff. I'd be more worried if his MtG stuff was as bad as I saw him in eg. Dortmund vs. Hoffenheim this season; this was on a much better level.
I wonder which role his observer may have played when Siebert had to assess the most crucial scene: In Austria, Fritz Stuchlik was well-known for applying the LOTG rigorously and even as a TV expert after his active career, he often had another (more consequent) point of view compared to other colleagues. I could imagine that Stuchlik was happy with Siebert's brave decision and that Siebert knew that he would have to react this way in order to satisfy Stuchlik. I do, however, not know how clear and "unique" the assessment criteria are within UEFA and whether the committee also expects this evaluation from both Siebert and Stuchlik.
DeleteThis situation can influence the performance of the German referees about to officiate Italian teams tomorrow and on Thursday in EL... very difficult for Zwayer and Stegemann. I really don't know what will happen after this game and especially tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteAnd we can already start to think about the next appointment for Milan.
I really don't think that the nationality of a team a countryman had been officiating before affects the way you approach a match the next day. A little too much psychology?!
DeleteJust because the Italian press will write against German referees... Zwayer and Stegemann will be strong, I'm sure, but they will have many eyes watching them. That's what I wanted to say.
DeleteI only think of Turpin as referee of Zagreb-Milan, taking into account everything that is happening today
DeleteWith all due respect Chefren but you make the Italian aspect way too important
Delete+1
DeleteTbh I'm perfectly fine with Siebert's RC in Milan.
ReplyDeleteThe fact Mount doesn't throw himself to the ground because he sees the big chance to score doesn't invalidate the punishable offence.
There was a similar incident last weekend in the Netherlands, in which case the referee did not blow the whistle. Van Hooijdonk said: "There are always people who say if you give this a penalty, you give it seven times in one game, but a foul is a foul. Then give it seven."
DeleteFor the forwards, it is always dissatisfying why the referee is so strict only for them.
@Quilava
DeleteI agree, the defender takes all the risk with his action, without any chance to win the ball. Absolutely supportable. CL, UEFA, Italian teams... this is all important in real life, but there is no single argument to say that this was a clear mistake IMO.
Thanks Quilava, that is EXACTL Y the point and I am asking myself, if some here really saw the same incident. Unbelievable!!!
DeleteOliver called for ofr. Penalty to benfica
ReplyDeleteExcellent VAR call in Paris, clear reckless challenge with the "unexpected" leg. Full contact on the foot of opponent, while the focus of referee was on the other leg of defender.. a very rare case and a good assessment by Attwell. After many controversial performances by him, let's highlight that!
ReplyDeleteAgree chefren, good call by Atteell after many controversial ones.
DeleteGood Atwell 👍🏻
DeleteSiebert is certainly not a bad referee, but now, he is not at the required WC level. For sure, he knew that today it was his chance to proove the contrary, but this made it even worse. However, the decision to appoint him at that Atletico Madrid game remains terrible. But it is not the end of the world, after all, he is Elite for less than a year. Others would be super happy with what Siebert got. Unfortunately for the German, he "has" to be pushed for more because of politics.
ReplyDeleteThe politics would be a typical Rosetti/Italian reaction, trying to blame Siebert cause he decided CORRECTLY and brave, ignoring Rosettis expectations that in doubt Italian teams should get a special treatment with happy ending...
DeleteCorrectly disallowed goal by AR in Paris, but Oliver too hurry in whistling, he was about to invalidate the possible intervention of technology, something that already happened to him in a recent game in Sweden. The offside was very clear, but better always to wait a few and to whistle clearly after the goal scored.
ReplyDeleteHe whistled for handball, this clear. Also offside. Whistle was delayed until after goal 👍🏻. It can be hear in the audio the whistle time
DeleteDitto +1 ... Just watched the replay and he indeed blew the whistle after the goal (though only miliseconds after that)
DeleteTerrible injury for Rudiger, I'm shocked... wishing the best to him.
ReplyDeleteCould there be arguments for a RC for the goalkeeper?
DeleteWould be rather unusual, but he certainly was too late and endangered the safety of an opponent.
easy match for umut meler in Glasgow.
ReplyDeleteTrouble days to Siebert and Artur. The others all fine/normal.
ReplyDeleteSee you tomorrow guys!
Very focused Stieler at the end of the game, with several well spotted incidents, advantages, YCs issues etc.
ReplyDeleteA good performance in general by Stieler tonight, IMO. Agree with you about increased alertness at the end, preventing any possible troubles which could have arisen. One decision to highlight is a good YC to Ivanušec (Dinamo) for simulation inside the box. The only VAR intervention was a nice job by the VMOs, but I don't really blame Stieler and the AR for calling that offside, an understandable error IMO.
DeleteI agree. In Germany, Stieler is very often a cold cookie, but tonight he made good decisions and found a good communication line with the players. What might have helped him is the fact, that one team comes from Austria speaking mostly German (at least some of the players) and that the other team had players with Austrian (Lubicic) and Swiss (Drmic) background. So everything was easy.
DeleteGood performance!
Yep,but what about canceling Dinamo's gol?
DeleteIt is usual that refs warn players before corner is taken about pushing and any contact,but there corner was taken,Dinamo scored and then he whistled and warned players and canceled Dinamo's goal...
What abou that decision?
It seems those few minutes I was away from TV cost me dearly, I completely missed that scene. After reading your comment and those on the portals, I rewatched the incident and yes, you are right. That decision is very weird and seems to be wrong.
DeleteStieler's whistle definitely went off after Oršić took the corner, but before Petković scored (at about the same moment he took the shot, maybe a split second before, but definitely before the ball crossed the line). It seems Stieler whistled for a stoppage to warn two players for some holding/pushing, however the corner was already taken, as you correctly stated, and the only possible decision could have been a foul, not the retaking of the corner.
Now, the other question is: what was the offence that he exactly saw? Because everything happened behind his back, the players even bumped into him during their "scuffle", but seem to already be on the floor when Stieler turns. Was he aided by another member of the team? Also, I have some doubts regarding the offence itself, maybe it was even a foul on Perić (Dinamo player), not mutual misconduct, but I cannot be sure.
In conclusion: the possible decisions could have been a foul for Salzburg, a foul for Dinamo or play on, but not the corner retake. The fact that Dinamo scored, but the whistle went off a second earlier makes it even worse because the VAR had his hands tied on the whole incident.
If someone thinks I got this all wrong, I would be glad to hear any other explanation because this seems to be a mistake. And sorry for missing it and not reporting it initially.
If players are on the ground before a restart, the referee normally delays the restart, right?
DeleteSo I think, this is just what happened. Stieler realized before the execution, that the players fell to the ground and therefore decided to stop it. He just didn't have enough time to whistle before the corner was taken. But the relevant timestamp is the one of the referee's perception not the one of the whistle.
So in my opinion, this was totally OK.
Actually giving a free kick would be wrong, because the possible offence happened before the corner execution.
And if he allowed the goal, I don't think VAR would be allowed to intervene in case of a clear foul by the attacker - because it happened before the corner, i.e. before the start of the APP. (not completely sure here)
Talking to the players probably was mostly for selling the decision as he indeed could not really see, what happened (unless there was input from a team member).
Yes, you are right, the possible offence did happen a split second before the corner execution (I checked the footage again). So, if the relevant timestamp is indeed that of the referee's perception, than your whole explanation is completely right (and thank you for it, it was a weird situation).
DeleteAn interesting comparison can be made with another straight RC issued by a German referee in a game involving an Italian team in CL. Atalanta - Real Madrid, Tobias Stieler one year and half ago.
ReplyDeleteIn that occasion the decision was supportable like today, but there were big discussions and many protests, what happened later to the German is well-known... a more than long time without CL without clear reasons. Of course now it wont be the same, because Siebert is in a different position, he has all trust by committee and he will attend World Cup, but I must say that Italian teams are always extremely difficult to handle because they don't accept decisions against them and when a referee comes from a different context (I mean, not an Italian referee in domestic league) this seems even more noticeable.
Just to comment, there is an opposite case also, with Zwayer in Juventus-Lyon (link to discussion, http://law5-theref.blogspot.com/2020/08/in-focus-felix-zwayers-performance-in.html) . And in that game wrong decisions (Stieler and Siebert IMO didnt make mistakes at all, at least not blatant) went in favour of the Italian team, but still it really affected Zwayer's career a lot.
DeleteMaybe solutuon is not to appoont German refs to Italian teams :)
DeleteJokes aside,you have to be top ref and one of the best to handle Italian pressure,and from Germany I think the only ref who had performances that were acceptable by Italian media was Felix Brych who also had some controversial ,but right moments(Cuadrado RC,Barella RC,Ronaldo RC...)but his statue and his credubility did not fall at all after matches where he was in charge of Italian teams.
Mainly good performances tonight except by one
ReplyDeleteIf foul in Milan is penalty then foul on Cuadrado ih Haifa is more penalty! Such a clear push. How can it be that it is not penlty, and one in Milan is???
ReplyDeleteYou have a point here, if we compare both situations, we cannot really speak of uniformity in application of the LotG. UEFA does not like soft penalties, so they would probably still support Mateu‘s decision while Siebert‘s call was a mistake.
DeleteIMHO, both situations are not penalties. Although I'll probably be in the minority with such a view.
DeleteI wouldn't say this is soft penalty. There is clear push with both hands, pretty strong push while they were running both. No shoulder to shoulder or something like that. Clear penalty for Juve for me. I watched this situation 10 times and it is more and more penalty every time. I don't care about Mateu's greatness - he had to be called to review this. He was 20-25 meters behind, he was late, from one angle we could notice that he might had bad angle to see this (one player obstructed his sight).
DeleteAny news about Jovanovic's performance? No one said anything.
ReplyDeleteAlright,expected good performance.
DeleteMaybe missed 1-2 YC but after all match control was in his hands and that's tricky considering how Sevilla and Sampaoli can turn easy going game into a challenging match.
Тhanks
Delete+1
DeleteBad night for UEFA refereeing.
ReplyDeleteFK was also taken from the incorrect spot. The fk was taken centrally when the foul was actually wider.
ReplyDeleteAfter all the discussions about Siebert's red card yesterday, I would like to pose a question that might stimulate a further thought process:
ReplyDeleteImagine if the player fouled yesterday had been a PSG or Athletico player in exactly the same scene. I'm curious how then yesterday evening would have been the discussions here.
Why am I asking this question?
Just because the player who was clearly fouled (three clear holdings which lead to DOGSO) tries to continue playing and somehow manages to shoot the ball without immediately falling theatrically and his teammates storming at the referee, you can't interpret that as a bad decision by Siebert. And reward the defender for it.
Think about it.
It's only because of the fair play of the attacker that this is being discussed here. Not the decision itself.
Took another look at Siebert's big call and what I found was quite interesting.
ReplyDeleteFull sequence: https://send.cm/d/FcFG
Slow-motion: https://send.cm/d/FcFH
Tomori knows he is caught out and does everything to try and stop Mount without committing a clear infringement. More decisive than the holding, it seems, is a cleverly planned 'block' using his right leg on 0:20 in the slo-mo clip. He then trawls his leg again at 0:23, causing the Chelsea attacker to minorly kick his own legs, and not score the chance.
I'm sure what Siebert detected was:
1) Holding existed
2) Mount fell 'naturally' (he did!)
-> Penalty + RC for last-man
For me though, it remains in the 'acceptable defending' range, and more play on. The holding, even including the first of the three (the other two are too trifling to be considered IMO), was not thaaat much. In general though, I didn't think it was such a bad night for Siebert - for sure he relied on cards, but he really had nothing to gain by trying to win acceptance after the RC (however you judge its' merits); he kept full control after this big call, and showed the required firmness as well. Foul detection was not bad, one isolated scene aside. After a bad patch, this was a positive step I think, and my idea is that the German is heading in the right direction again.
I would like to propose something. Maybe we could make more polls in the right side of the page. They are occasional but I was thinking maybe we can make them almost a permanent thing. We can vote our opinions on controversial topics (like the RC last night), try to assess performances, do predictions for a specific game, etc. Seeing the general perception about an incident could add value to the blog. But for relevance, it must be done in a way so every person can vote just once. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteGreat idea.
DeleteI watched again Siebert's match. Still I absolutely support his decision of RC/PK (I have no idea how to argue for a YC + PK here without violating LOTG.) But my problem with Siebert is - and that remembers me to the first years of Turpin - that he has no natural authority or "Aura" on the field and his bodylanguage is too week yet. So he must struggle hard for
ReplyDeletematchcontrol and still needs time, maybe some psychological supervising. There are more big talents who have the same problem. The "new Brychs, Cakirs, Collinas or Mateus" are not yet visible in the first row in big numbers, but one of the reasons here is that UEFA is not really supporting refs anymore, who show authority without compromising, IF NECESSARY. Communication is the key to modern refereeing, yes, but in heated matches you still need to define boarders and make clear, that you will defend the LOTG at any costs. If UEFA and FIFA do not support that, we REALLY GET IN BIG TROUBLE!
When I see the talents in Germany, I see already 2 younger refs, who have that Aura, are brave and can adapt their style to the character of the match they are in charge of: Petersen and the very young Badstübner, maybe even Osmers. So dont be so pessimistic, guys... Letexier could be a very great ref in future, too, like Marciniak already is, most of the time, Vincic, too, finally. And there are more promising young refs. Its not at all a lack of talent, the fish might stink from the head...
Sorry, I wanted to mention Sven Jablonski from Bremen as one of the most promising young refs, not Oetersen. He is a big talent too, but not so far in his development, great body language, but too many little mistakes, not always concentrated enough.
Delete