2023-24 UEFA Champions League Quarterfinals, referee appointments for Tuesday's Second Legs.
16 April 2024
21:00 CET - Barcelona (Estadi Olímpic Lluís Companys)
FC Barcelona (ESP) - Paris Saint Germain (FRA) Referee:
Assistant Referee 1: Vasile Florin Marinescu ROU
Assistant Referee 2: Mihai Ovidiu Artene ROU
Fourth Official: Horațiu Mircea Feșnic ROU
Assistant Referee 1: Vasile Florin Marinescu ROU
Assistant Referee 2: Mihai Ovidiu Artene ROU
Fourth Official: Horațiu Mircea Feșnic ROU
Video Assistant Referee: Marco Fritz GER
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Bastian Dankert GER
UEFA Referee Observer: Terje Hauge NOR
UEFA Referee Observer: Terje Hauge NOR
UEFA Delegate: Gerard Lawlor NIR
21:00 CET - Dortmund (BVB Stadion)
Borussia Dortmund (GER) - Club Atlético de Madrid (ESP) Referee: Slavko Vinčić SVN
Assistant Referee 1: Tomaž Klančnik SVN
Assistant Referee 2: Andraž Kovačič SVN
Fourth Official: Matej Jug SVN
Assistant Referee 1: Tomaž Klančnik SVN
Assistant Referee 2: Andraž Kovačič SVN
Fourth Official: Matej Jug SVN
Video Assistant Referee: Nejc Kajtazovič SVN
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Rade Obrenovič SVN
UEFA Referee Observer: Mehmet Murat Ilgaz TUR
UEFA Referee Observer: Mehmet Murat Ilgaz TUR
UEFA Delegate: Marcin Stefański POL
Kovacs being available makes things a lot easier.
ReplyDeleteNot ideal though, that his last game was more than a month ago.
Vincic is a very normal appointment.
30 March when he had his last domestic game is not a month ago...
DeleteSo we should expect for Wednesday assignments Makkelie and Orsato? Probably, yes.
DeleteLooking at Dankert as AVAR, I kinda expect him this week to be main VAR as well, so I assume an EL QF for Zwayer. Marseille-Benfica would be my guess then.
Yes, sorry, I didn't find a game for him on worldfootball.net.
DeleteBut yes, he had a 2nd division game - and also the EURO play-off, of course, which I completely forgot...
So not a big problem then indeed.
Yes, Makkelie and Orsato are quite expected and with the Italian observer in Munich the assignment should be clear.
Maybe Dankert will work with Zwayer on Thursday, but also possible that they go directly to a SF. Dankert also already worked as VAR last week (with Siebert). Maybe Stieler+Dingert will be the German appointment of the week.
Fritz seems to be the dedicated VAR for Kovacs going into the EURO.
After this set, I'm starting to think that we could not see Orsato on Wednesday, and maybe he will be directly in a semifinal. This can be explained by the mutiple Italian appointments (especially Guida twice in CL). We have had already four Italian assignments in CL KO stage.
ReplyDeleteIf appointed, Orsato could do only game in Manchester, since there is an Italian observer in Munich. But my opinion about tomorrow's release is that we will see Makkelie and another referee (rather not Orsato).
About these assignments, for Kovacs a very big one, we don't talk about him as candidate for Champions League final, but based on what he has shown so far, at least on paper he could be included. In reality, it's easy to think that committee will have years and years for him and after a Conference League final, the next step will be Europa League. Nevertheless, in a very extreme case, I think they consider him as candidate. Let's see how he will perform in Barcelona.
Vincic could have got the game in Manchester, a big one, but again the choice is different. We saw that this clash was challenging in first leg, but surely that's less than the very top clash in the competitions. I think Atlético will be hard to officiate because they will do everything to keep first leg win, but still, for some reasons, the Slovenian is never sent to very big games.
If things go well on Tuesday, Kovacs should be indeed included at least in the second tier of CL final candidates (with the first tier being Makkelie and Vincic).
DeleteVincic doesn't get the very sonourous games, but still regularly does tight second legs (Bayern-Lazio, ManCity-Leipzig, Bayern-Villareal, ManUnited-Atletico) in the last years.
If not Orsato, who would be your fourth name?
I think that game in Munich can be very last appointment for Spanish referees, and despite of their situation, it's hard to believe they stay with only Sanchez Martinez in a Round of 16 game. So I think we could see Sanchez Martinez in Munich and Makkelie in Manchester. Maybe not deserved after Georgia - Luxembourg for the Spanish, but we know how it works.
DeleteIs it possible for a Spanish referee in Munich? Real Madrid are potential opponents in the next round?
DeleteKovacs back after ~ 2,5 weeks rest. Unexpected and his first CL-return since 2021. Big test for him.
ReplyDeleteVincic back in Germany again, away from the brightest spotlight. It’s suspicious, isn’t it? Atlético can be challenging to referee, but still a bit easier if the opponent is a fair team from Germany playing at home. I can see Atlético start time wasting from the start. That’s why the game won’t be the most attractive one, unless Dortmund scores an early goal. Apparently Vincic’ AR doesn’t need a two day rest :)
@Chefren: my idea is Orsato in Manchester now tbh. And Makkelie in München with Italian observer.
My first two presictions are good
ReplyDeleteBar - psg Kovacs
Dor - Atl Vincic
Then:
Bay - Ars Makkelie
City - Mad Zwayer
EL
Mar - Ben Manzano
Ata - Liv Maria Sanchez
Asr - Acm Marciniak
Whu - Lev Kruzliak
Conference
Fen - Pir Orsato
Lil - Villa Jovanovic
Fio - Plz Gozubuyuk
Paok - Bru Peljto
Zwayer seems not possible on Wednesday because his VAR will be AVAR on Tuesday and since all crews are on site for KO stage, Dankert can't be in England the day after.
DeleteSame issue with Spanish referees tomorrow, the possible opponents include a German teams. I thought when this was the case it was only first leg possible, hence Michael Oliver in EL 1st leg only
DeleteThe VAR referees aren't at the place of the game. The are at the headquarter of the uefa.
DeleteIn the groupstages was a VAR in the cl a avar on thursday.
@RvT not in KO stage, only group stage
DeleteOrsato and Makkelie the sensible choices tomorrow however, Orsato only possible in Manchester and there was come controversy when he did the same game the other year.
ReplyDeleteGoing forward, Marciniak seems nailed for the Italian derby on Thursday and then a champions league semi second leg. Turpin/ Prsato should be the other second leg name (depending on PSG, forst leg of other side of PSG still there)
Europa League final for Kovacs this year? Sawyer perhaps if no Leverkusen? Feels a bit early for Letexier/Nyberg. Dias another option? Oliver not possible
Makkelie for UCL final duty (if no PSG)
DeleteTaylor if PSG vs Real Madrid / Bayern
Who knows if it’s PSG vs City/ Arsenal. Vincic with PSG I’m not sure?
Kovacs then maybe
Europa League final feels like a coin flip between Kovács or Zwayer. The latter is dependent of Leverkusen out. On the other hand, Kovács is paired with Fritz.
DeleteConference League final, I can see Nyberg there. With Zwayer as back-up option if they want a more experienced name.
No way Nyberg will get any final this year, it's to soon for him. Especially in a terms of motivation
DeleteYes, you might be right. Nyberg also worked with Van Boekel/Higler as VAR and I don’t rate their season high enough to get a final. The best option is probably Kovacs the Europa League final (he followed a clear path), Zwayer in Conference League final (based on recent form) and Nyberg the Supercup. But I have to see what happens if Leverkusen is in the final (Kovacs with Italian VAR?), or when Roma is in the final again. With Roma, I’d slightly prefer Zwayer over Kovacs, as Kovacs already had Roma in his conference league final. But I don’t think UEFA will see that as a problem.
DeleteTerje Hauge and Barcelona,
ReplyDeleteold memories from 2006 CL final...
I'm sure that he will be warmly welcomed at Camp Nou :)
MY PREDICTIONS;
ReplyDeleteUCL
BAY - ARS : Makkelie
MCI - RMA : Marciniak
UEL
MRS - BEN : Gil Manzano
WHU - LEV : Massa
ATA - LIV : Letexier
ASR - ACM : Taylor
UECL
FİO - PLZ : Pejito
LIL - AVL : Hernandez Hernandez
PAO - BRU : Kruzliak
FB - OLY : Jovanovic
I think we can fairly say that it is a bigger chance Rosetti assigns Orsato to Roma - Milan than Taylor :p, but I absolutely don't think it's impossible that some referee get's to do games in both legs like you predicted with him and Letexier
DeleteNot impossible, but would be a bad sign for the EURO, if they don't find 16 different referees for the CL and EL QF games, I think.
DeleteAnd with Makkelie, Orsato, Marciniak, Kruzliak, Zwayer, Sanchez, Gözübüyük and Massa, there should be enough options for the remaining CL and EL games.
And Conference League could go to the referees with smaller EURO chances like Jovanovic, Peljto or Stieler.
[OFF-TOPIC]
ReplyDeleteOvidiu Hațegan with a very controversial situation in the game he refereed today - Dinamo Bucharest vs Poli Iași (Romanian Superliga play-out).
A Dinamo player hit an opponent in full speed with his head, causing him multiple skull fractures and a ruptured eardrum. Hațegan only gave a YC for this foul (no VAR intervention).
(from min 4:23): https://youtu.be/ZIeAoieRYxs?si=sNYvu3ejtlDaM9G5&t=263
Should this have been a RC?
No, that is mostly an unlucky accident as the red player is trying to play the ball with his head in a normal manner.
DeleteThe injury doesn't automatically define the punishment.
It's obviously the landing that causes the injury and not the challenge from the Dinamo player in it self, a yellow card is fair and I think a red would be quite unjustified for this incident that could only be described as extremely unlucky
DeleteHațegan had a couple of very good performances in a row recently, appreciated by the everybody. But not showing RC yesterday for this is considered unanimously a serious mistake. I didn't see even one person who supported the YC decision, because of the consequences the foul had. "At this stage we have all the criteria of a red card: intensity, endangering the physical integrity by hitting the opponent with the head, the force with which the attack takes place, the serious consequences of the foul... A decision difficult to understand and explain why Ovidiu (n.r. Hațegan) only gave a yellow card. Such a foul must be firmly sanctioned with a red card", said Marius Avram, former FIFA referee, who is now the most relevant refereeing expert at TV and online in my opinion. The journalists and the sports website criticized the decision but they were not so radical like other times. Pretty benign I might say. If there was a lower rated referee involved the reactions would have been much worse. There is already public sympathy for Hațegan and the previous performances helped him in this regard. The game was very important for relegation and looked difficult to officiate, for this reason it was appointed an European trio.
DeleteA very similar or at least 'under the same heading' (no pun intended) incident occurred during the Club Brugge vs. PAOK Salonica quarterfinal in the Conference League refereed by Daniel Siebert, as excellently reported by Euro Soccer Ref:
DeleteOverall analysis: https://rb.gy/ghpe1v
Specific incident: https://streambug.org/cv/ed55b3
In an official press release posted today on the Romanian Football Federation website, K. Vassaras says that RC was the correct decision! Translation with Google Translate, with slight improvements given the football context:
Delete[https://www.frf.ro/recomandate/precizarile-presedintelui-cca-in-urma-partidei-dinamo-politehnica-iasi/]
"Regarding the serious injury of the player Luca Mihai, after an aerial duel for the ball, we express our support and wish him an easy and quick recovery. Given the consequences of this duel, it had to be considered a serious foul play that endangers the player and the disciplinary sanction that was imposed was a red card for the Dinamo player, Homawoo Josue Francis. Our message and our instructions to referees is to protect the safety of players on the field of play and to remove those who, by their actions, endanger the health and integrity of opponents. Giving a red card is not enough to avoid such unfortunate incidents, so we also expect players to consider the possible consequences of their actions when challenging an opponent” said Kyros Vassaras, CCA president.
"Given the consequences of this duel, it had to be considered a serious foul play" sorry, but that's a fully wrong statement under the refereeing point of vew. As Philipp said, the severity of the injury doesn't set a certain punishment. All challenges must be analyzed according to what the fouling player does, then there can be other elements due to unlucky circumstances.
DeleteTo be honest, I'm a fan of deeming it a SFP. The red player tries to play the ball but it's the opponent who is in a privileged position. Therefore, you need to care about the opponent while making your action. So, basically it's a reckless action but given the outcome it clearly endangered the opponent's safety and the sending off would've been fully according to LotG. The same can be said about the incident from Siebert's game. I always thought we should pay more attention to head clashes as not always they are 'collisions' but just reckless or even SFP (like in these cases) fouls.
DeleteThe answer here is pretty simple in my eyes.
DeleteIt should be a red card, but we don't have enough good instruction for referees to know it should be a red card.
It's not that the severity of injury is dictating the result. It's that the nature of the challenge is made with excessive force (in both the Romanian and UECL cases). There's no need to challenge that hard from behind in a foul manner. The force is excessive and, consequently, the safety was endangered (quite obviously).
I think too much of our instruction is focused on leg fouls. We have all these neat little criteria to consider (straight leg, lunging, mode of contact, point of contact, etc., etc.) to adjudicate between YC-reckless and SFP. But we have almost nothing of the sort for upper body fouls. That doesn't mean that every upper body foul is just reckless. When you come from behind with force, foul a player, and do (or potentially do) serious damage to that opponent's head/neck... why shouldn't that be SFP? Why is YC the default?
In the Romanian case, look at the immediate reaction of the players. They knew how bad it was instantly. Hategan (and all of us) would do very well to read that. Euro Soccer Ref is right here.
ORSATO & MAKELLIE FOR WEDNESDAY
ReplyDeleteCorrectly Predicted!
DeleteUnfortunately not:
DeleteMakellie will be replaced by Makkelie.
Peter :)
DeleteEredivisie
ReplyDeleteHeracles Almelo - sc Heerenveen:
Not goal but an offside because the defender couldn't control the ball.
https://youtu.be/PA0KSVXL84U?t=441
This is the most disagreeable 'not a deliberately play' decision I've ever seen. This is just a failure of clearance.
• The ball travelled from distance and the player had a clear view of it
• The ball was not moving quickly
• The direction of the ball was not unexpected
• The player had time to coordinate their body movement
I think it meets most of these conditions for it to be considered a deliberately play. Maybe discussable the speed of the ball.
Inexplicably, this is not by no means an accidental decision in the Netherlands; decisions are consistently made on this basis. I would like to see a case where it is judged as a 'failure of clearance' soon, but so far in the Netherlands in all cases it has been judged as the player couldn't control the ball, then not a deliberately play.
https://www.knvb.nl/nieuws/scheidsrechters/aanstellingen/68972/makkelie-leidt-return-tussen-bayern-münchen-en-arsenal
ReplyDelete18' It think missed YC by Kovacs for a reckless challenge. Probably boarderline to okay to let the player go unpunished, but it would have been a good moment to open with cards.
ReplyDeleteMasterclass RC+free kick by Kovacs
ReplyDeleteExcellent FK + DOGSO RC by Kovács!
ReplyDeleteEasy DOGSO but excellent detection of point of foul just outside penalty area. Well done Kovacs👍👍
ReplyDeleteAn excellent spot by Kovacs indeed, he was absolutely sure of his decision. Really nice to see.
DeleteI think ar2 who give him out or in
DeleteAnd now the first card is a RC for DOGSO. Correct decision, especially well seen that the foul happened outside the penalty area.
ReplyDeleteWhat would you say, should it be a YCif penalty given?
I don't see a genuine attempt for the ball there. I think a RC regardless of in or out
DeleteI agree with Daniel on this, there was no genuine attempt to play the ball by Araujo whatsoever. RC for me even if it were inside.
Delete+1 should have been RC anyways
DeleteThe law has been adapted since the start of this season and was rewritten as “… the offender is cautioned if the offence was an attempt to play the ball or a challenge for the ball”, which gives a bit extra room for downgrading to YC.
DeleteYes, @Unknown, therefore I was asking. I wonder what card UEFA wants to see in such a situation. And I bet it is a YC. Because it is more a late challenge than a holding where LotG leave absolutely no room for YC.
DeleteThat’s also my feeling @Cassius. If it were a holding, the question would rise where the holding ended (which seemed to be inside the box). Apart from that the holding for me was not enough to punish.
DeleteBut if a holding is punished in such a situation, then it must be a RC card regardless of FK or PK.
DeleteAnd I agree. There were slight holding elements, but mostly it was the late challenge by upper body that was a foul.
It’s never a challenge for the ball the defender is wrong side and has no chance of playing it. Has to be RC regardless
Delete@Cassius Definitely, my point was merely that the foul which was punished must have been the thigh-contact as otherwise it would have been a penalty. But clearly a holding would have led to a sending off either way.
DeleteCome on guys... was it even a foul!? Slightest contact, for a second, and Barcola diving into the way of Araujo.... In the first 15 minutes Kovacs did not call 5 bigger contact...
DeleteWould most likely gone under ”an attempt to challenge for the ball”. This year it’s most likely a YC as red card offences for DOGSO in the penalty area has to be very excessive/clear. But an excellent spot to deem it outside in this case!
Delete34min missed yc for hakimi
ReplyDeleteVery, very convincing performance by Kovacs so far. Not afraid to show YCs, also to a name like Mbappé, good time management and I personally also liked go end the half on a corner kick, no problem if time is up. Kovacs surely is not there to be popular.😄
ReplyDeleteSome hot moments in DORATM, the atmosphere is tense between players:
ReplyDelete02' - late challenge by 23DOR; public warning would've been optimal
30' - YC 3ATM for very reckless frustration challenge after previous play-on call on 19ATM; the player even dissented after receiving the YC
36' - wrong play-on call after SPA holding/impeding by 4DOR and bad looking retaliation (attempt to hit) by 19ATM; managed afterwards
41' - potential 2YC 3ATM for reckless tackle against GK; I think it will be supported but surely a card would've been shown to a player not cautioned before
43' - YC 26DOR for SPA impeding; correct; the player dissents after receiving the YC and is warned afterwards
45+1' - YC 22ATM for reckless use of arm; wrong card, the referees were deceived by exaggerating contact by DOR player
What if i say no faoul here araoujo hand in the shoulder not push not hold
ReplyDeletehttps://streambug.org/cv/39f5b3
Last replay shows clear leg contact from behind, foul not questionable.
DeleteXavi ejected by Kovács for dissent by action (kicking), good.
ReplyDeleteExcellent decision and really refreshing to see. Intolerable behaviour by Xavi.
DeleteAnd now correct PK, unbelievable and useless tackle by Cancelo
ReplyDeleteDefinite penalty, possible offside on left wing in APP?
ReplyDeleteAnd now a correct PK for PSG!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhy would this be a yellow card?
DeleteNot watching the game so don’t know the full story but leaving the field is to celebrate a goal is not a cautionable offence by itself.
DeleteFrankly, I didn't see anything that can be deemed excessive and/or provocative celebration in that situation. Therefore, I don't see a potential YC there.
DeleteAbsolutely brilliant decision by Kovacs and AR1 Marinescu on the PSG penalty kick.
ReplyDeleteAgree, no penalty for me as well, but a difficult situation to assess properly. Excellent performance by Kovacs until now.
DeleteVery good no PK on Gundogan now. Match can become harsh, but so far very well managed
ReplyDeleteWhy do You think that was not a PK!? Clear contact on Gündogan's leg from behind that caused the collapse... I think it's clear foul 10/10 at every area of the field...
Delete@Marco
DeleteI'm agree, it's not penalty !!!
DeleteKovacs has been amazing so far. Difficult 25 minutes (at least) still to play. Challenging game.
ReplyDeleteGerman commentators disagree. They say "I think it‘s fair to say that the referee lost control…“.
DeleteFrom what I have seen, all key incidents were evaluated correctly.
The DAZN commenter has no idea
Delete@Ref_1707 Naturally, on here everyone will praise it when the key incidents are handled correctly. For the average viewer who doesn't care about ref performances it can very well appear as if he has lost the plot.
DeleteI'm not sure I'd agree with the notions of this being a "masterclass display" as some people claim, but he's definitely been solid. Most calls have been relatively easy, all things considered. A few soft calls to balance things when it has been heated but that's unavoidable.
Refereeing masterclass!
ReplyDeleteVery difficult game and Kovács is doing great job from refereeing perspective. All big decisions are correct and even the small details in discpilinary control it's amazing,
ReplyDeleteLooking at the wider public, probably his job will be criticized.
I hope he will get further assignment this season at least in EL, so it would confirm his work is appreciated my committee.
However I want to mention one thing. For me instantly the famous Taylor-Mourinho EL final came to my mind, where Taylor didn't directly confronted the Roma bench. As I remember somewhere in the end one YC.
Now different approach, and maybe that should be the way to deal with that, even though the public image is not good.
But as a referee I highly appreciate and praise this zero-tolerance. Especially that Kovács is taking brilliant decisions on the field, and rather the Barcelona players are doing completely foolish things on the pitch.
You are completely right regarding bench management. A clear message has to be shown that such behaviour cannot and will not be tolerated. It's easy to blame the coaches for their behaviour, and they should be blamed, but proper disciplinary tools need to be used. Otherwise we have a very wrong message sent by the referees and the committee.
DeleteExcellent refereeing by Kovacs. I think it's fair to say that not all referees would have taken the same decisions. Starting from the DOGSO: I'm convinced, in case of YC, VAR wouldn't have intervened. And in case of that decision, game would have had a totally different progress, then. The Romanian referee was never afraid of showing that he was sure about his decisions.
ReplyDeleteThe red card for DOGSO, I must be honest, I can't deny that attacker used a bit the contact of the hand on the shoulder to exaggerate a foul, but the action by defender can't be denied. So, I answer to Adnane message as well: this is an expected decision and a referee must judge what he sees. No touch, no foul. But maybe, differently from other people, I can understand this point of view (some people in Italy are convinced about same opinion). To follow, penalty call absolutely correct and not easy to spot, these are situations that veery often are changed by VAR, this was not the case. Third call: correct no penalty. Kovacs would have been even more a hero in case of YC to Barça keeper before penalty execution. But he didn't want to go too far away after what had happened and I can agree.
There will be many complaints by Barcelona at the end of this game, in case of elimination, but that's the story nowadays with football. Let's say this time the French side will not say anything.
Kovacs after this game can go directly to Europa League final.
Or... (but maybe, as I said, too early for him for that!).
Just one thing to mention. What a team performance this is! Both ARs are really on top today! And I think this time the 4th official also did a very visible job.
DeleteAnd just a connection with last week comments. If we said the new generation is ready with Nyberg and Letexier, we can include Kovacs to this group. Which means really there is a good pool of referees for the upcoming years.
Chefren, what do you think about the situation of a potential penalty for Barcelona? IMO penalty for a foul on Ilkay
DeleteKovacs is highly criticized in social media already. How unfair life as a referee can be… I strongly doubt that we will see him again, we have seen it often in the past that not really the refereeing perspective counts but rather how a performance is rated or commented by the clubs and fans. I hope I am wrong though as it seems that the Romanian did a good job
ReplyDeleteThat's the way it goes, you can't have an excellent match without being criticized.
DeleteFunny that Barcelona fans are the one to say that given the fact that they have history of decision going in favour of them.
Raphinha could not complain if he would have been sent off in the end as well...The whole team behaviour was really bad from Barcelona.
ReplyDeleteAnd also totally understandable not to set the fire more on by Kovacs.
I think we have a performance worth around 8,8-9,0 today honestly. So well done to Kovacs and his team!
He won't do Barca for a long time, if ever, but he did a great job overall.
ReplyDeleteNow, to spark the debate on the blog a bit... I'm quite surprised that everyone is so convinced about Kovacs performance. All 3 calls for me are controversial, one more than the other.
ReplyDeleteFirst one, if a foul is whistled it is definitely a red card, but is it really a foul? Yes, there is contact but was it caused by the defender? Or did the attacker go to the ground first. My feeling is the latter and play on would be the better choice.
Second one, first leg plays the ball, but also a lot of the opponent, especially with the second leg. More penalty than not.
Third one, very clear penalty for me, Gundogan was definitely tripped by Vitinha, albeit accidental. I would have liked a VAR intervention.
All together, I am pretty sure that in none of these cases VAR would have intervened if the decision would have been the other way around and all three went against one team. They definitely have something to say.
Apart from that, very convincing game management from Kovacs.
I agree
DeleteI do not agree. all 3 decisions are difficult, debatable, but completely correct! 😉😉😉
DeleteFor me there is no faoual in 29 play on
ReplyDeletePsg Penalty was given by ar1 we all saw delay between the faoul and the whistle
And there is pelanty for gundogan
I will give him 7.4
Barca fan probably 😉
DeleteIm not barca fan im ref fan
DeleteAnd how can u convince me this not pelanty we all know who run behind take responsibility of any contact
https://streambug.org/cv/39f5b3
https://streambug.org/cv/c952b7
DeleteCould you motivate based on the Laws of the Game why this is to be considered a foul? (A genuine question since I am intrigued by your decisiveness).
Delete@mx
DeleteIf an offence involves contact, it is penalised by a direct free kick.
Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed
Correct, to answer this my reasoning is that there is simply no offence being committed by the defender. The player simply did not make a challenge and in my opinion did not act without precaution. That’s my reasoning behind not assessing this as a foul. Contact? Yes. Foul? No.
DeleteSorry, but this time you are wrong....
DeleteThere is an attacker in positional advantage who has the possession of the ball, cutting in toward the goal in promising position. The defender comes from behind and also knocks his leg from behind, that caused the collapse of the attacker. It DOES NOT MATTER that the defender made a challange or not... doesn't even matter that he wanted to make the contact or it was totally accidental... Even if it was accidental, he fouled the attacker and stopped in promising situation.
Is very accidental contact a foul? NO.
Is an accidental contact that stops an attacker in a promising situation from behind a foul? Clearly YES.
Okay we can agree to disagree in this situation. For me in this scenario there has to be a challenge for there to be a foul, especially in penalty situations. In my opinion the criteria for a foul CAN/COULD change due to the consequences of the alleged foul, but I don’t see it as such in this case due to the game decisive outcome it would have. I respect your opinion though @Roque and appreciate the conversation.
DeleteI argue that only the first call can be seen as controversial. But that should not be the referees fault. I think it is possible to play on there and VAR would not intervene, but it would remain controversial. that is the nature of hard decisions with a lot of impact in the game. It is also not Kovacs fault that Barca players (and coaches) lose their mind and do stupid things. Especially DOGSO situation and penalty were totally unnecessairy...
ReplyDeleteUEFA would do all their referees a favour if they would publicly nack Kovacs and even praise his performance. That includes to appoint him to Barca again and probably reward him with big games this season.
Agreed with your statement there, no matter if Kovacs whistles the foul or not it will remain highly controversial, as you said - it is the nature of difficult and game decisive decisions that aren’t 100% clear.
DeleteChefren, what do you think about the situation of a potential penalty for Barcelona? IMO penalty for a foul on Ilkay
ReplyDeleteBest decision play on, but if whistled, for the minimum contact, I think it would have been supported by VAR. I agree with Kovacs. Of course for some people contact means always penalty and that's wrong.
DeleteI cant 100% agree with all of you praising Kovacs. But I still hope we see him again this season.
ReplyDeleteAll 4 key accidents are managed well for me:
RC DOGSO for me actually clear (yes, intented contact but defender simply acts unclever and a foul is always the expected decision).
Penalty for PSG is the easiest. Simply a clear foul.
RC for Xavi correct as well. You can actually also lipsync him insulting the 4th Official besides kicking away the camera thing.
No penalty for Barca is the only situation I am a little unsure. The contact exists and is rather similar to the DOGSO situation so I would have preferred penalty. But never VAR stuff ofc and I think UEFA should support the decision.
But the big but. I thought his foul detection was mediocre and his card management all over the place.
YCs for Gündogan unless big dissent wrong.
YC Fabian wrong. Thats a normal foul.
YC Fermin rather a 50/50 and unnecessary in the last seconds.
Marqiunhos should have had a YC before he actually got it, but when he got it, it was rather an accident then a foul.
Raphinha needs to have 2YC, but here I can understand why Kovacs is not doing it in the last 2 minutes.
Ter Stegen should have gotten a YC before the penalty.
And I remember a challenge from PSG around 25` that was reckless. But I cant remember the player. Foul given no card.
So, yes there will be discussion. And we should praise Kovacs for good main decision (including a brilliant DOGSO) but also critisize him for a rather poor management and foul detection.
Did not watch the full game so cannot comment on how Kovacs managed the game, but looked through the three main KMI’s from the Barcelona - PSG game.
ReplyDeleteFirst decision for me is gray zone in terms of foul or not, both supportable. In my opinion it’s more of a foul than not, especially because of the nature of the offence from the defender. The decision therefore feels very expected. Excellent from Kovacs and his team to deem it outside and of course an easy DOGSO.
Second incident is for me a PK, hits the ball and the player, don’t have to make the situation more difficult than it has to be.
Third incident for me a clear no foul, more of a collision between two players running in a normal manner. This is never a penalty in this type of scenario for me. Not all contact is punishable in football.
All in all only the first decision can be deemed as controversial for me and although the foul itself is soft, the decision in my opinion is highly expected. The other incidents are for me assessed correctly by Kovacs and his team today.
"Third incident for me a clear no foul, more of a collision between two players running in a normal manner. This is never a penalty in this type of scenario for me."
DeleteNormal manner!? I think Gündogan clearly had positional advantage when the player from behind knocked his leg... IMO it is a very clear foul every time...
Its a kinda thesis for attackers that they should cut in every time in front of the defender, because all the contacts from behind will be foul... what should be valid.
It is a clear one IMO...
https://www.streambug.io/cv/c952b7
Gündogan cut in , defender comes from behind with no chance of playing the ball and giving the contact... And it's also important that it isn't Gündogan who forced the contact. I seriously can't understand the opinion that it is not a foul...
Yes in my opinion both players are running in a normal manner and no offence is being committed. I am not saying Gündogan is seeking the contact but as I said, I deem this more of a collision between two players than a careless trip and a foul.
DeleteWhat @MX in your opinion makes the Gündogan-situation different than the DOGSO situation? Assuming the upper leg contact is punished in the DOGSO situation, isn’t it a collision between two players running in a normal way as well?
DeleteYes that is a fair assessment @Unknown. In my opinion what is punished in the first situation is more the nature/intent of the defender who is making an active challenge (eg: chasing him, being the last defender which means he is always going to try and defend, hand on the shoulder etc). I believe that the hand on the shoulder is decisive in this scenario but if we imagine that there was no hand on the shoulder, the nature of both incidents would be fairly similar and therefore a foul/no foul on both cases would be expected. What I can say in reality of the scenario however (since the hand on the shoulder is a reality in this case) is that the DOGSO situation for me is a matter of the defender trying to stop the attacker while the PK situation is the defender just existing rather than being the one actively defending against him. The nature of the two incidents are therefore different, one where the player is making an active choice to defend and the other where he isn’t, thus making one a foul and the other one more of a collision for me.
DeleteSo you succeeded in arguing why Vitinha was smarter than Araujo. But there is nothing in the Laws of the Game on active actions or not. Tripping is tripping, bringing player down is bringing player down. Either both are fouls or both are not. The laws of the game don't give any other option.
DeleteIndeed there is a BIG difference in the LoTG between tripping/holding offences! When it comes to tripping, the intensity of the contact is always considered. When it comes to the holding offences, there's no sanctions for intensity, the referee judges only whether the offence occured or not. And yes, even if it's a "small" holding, it's still holding and the referee is correct to consider it a foul no matter what.
Delete@Marko23 You are correct, tripping is tripping. But in my opinion there was no tripping OFFENCE. Yes the consequence of the sequence is that Gündogan trips but that doesn’t automatically make it a foul from the defender.
DeleteExample: You are the defender and I am the attacker, you are just standing still without moving a muscle and I run into your leg and trip. Considering you deem an active action as non significant, this would be a foul for you because the consequence of the situation is that I trip over your leg while for me it would be a collision. Of course the situation during the game is not exactly like this but this is an over exaggerated example to show what I mean.
In my world (in the situation that occured during the game), there is no more than a collision. The defender is just existing and not commiting an offence while the attacker is also just existing. None of them are doing anything to commit an offence and therefore I see it as a collision. As I said previously and as @MT wrote - not all contact is punishable in football.
Unexpectedly Xavi laying full blame on the referee for his team's defeat. "He changed the game and the entire tie. I've just the referee he's been a disaster, that's the reality."
ReplyDeleteAnd disgraceful behaviour with Kovács and his ARs after final whistle.
Deletehttps://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1c5s8mm/xavi_confronting_the_ref_after_the_game/
This whole game is a fantastic counterargument to the old adage that “the best referees are the ones no one talks about after the game.” Sometimes big games require big decisions, and the right choice is not always the one that generates the least controversy!
Delete@Quilava
DeleteHad Mourinho done the same, we would have asked for life-long ban. Hopefully UEFA will take actions against Xavi
Refereeing at the top level is now Impossible.
ReplyDeleteIn any second leg game if it’s a tight game, referee will always be strongly blamed by the loosing team and country media if there is even a slight chance they may have got one little thing wrong at some point. God help the officials (Oliver) with crucial 50/50 decisions that are clearly going ti prove crucial at the end. It’s ridiculous. Certain clubs and countries are worse for it than others certainly. Kovacs was spot on with decisions tonight.
List of officials who can’t down teams (assuming Kovacs won’t do Barcelona for a while)
Oliver (Juventus, Italy, likely any Italian derbies, Dortmund?)
Taylor (any Italian team, Dortmund? )
Kovacs (Barcelona)
Jesus Gil Manzano (Ukraine)
Makkelie (PSG)
Orsato (PSG? PSG president broke into his changing room in 1st leg, same as with Makkelie in 2nd)
Vincic (Man City?)
Jovanovic (Italy?)
Aytekin (PSG/Barcelona. Career gone after one poor performance)
Referees when presented with a 95th minute penalty which could go either way (juventus vs Real Madrid with Michael Oliver) same with Doku in Mc Alistair the other week, are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. What chance do they have? Careers being decided on 50/50 calls, because one club doesn’t like it.
How many times has Anthony Taylor done Roma for example, if he hated them and wanted them to not win the Europa League last year, he wouldn’t have sent off an opponent or ruled out a Roma goal in the quarter final. Clubs should have no power and referees defended, especially in 50/50 calls.
Totally agree... it feels like there are more and more situations where you feel like the referee just can't win, no matter how he decides in a crucial situation
DeleteI agree with your point that some top organizations are way too quick to bar referees from seeing certain teams. This action should be reserved for only the most extreme cases where a referee’s safety is in doubt. Otherwise, all teams and all referees should be treated neutrally. Organizations should support their referees firmly, and independently from outside pressures, even if the referee has a controversial or even a bad game.
DeleteI think, there are indeed some teams that has long histories as ones that are quite difficult to manage, no matter whether you send Turpin, Marciniak, Orsato, or even Kuipers / Collina there! either it's about the fans, the managements, directors, players... that's my opinion
DeleteExcellent performance from Kovacs,maybe the best performance from any ref this season.
ReplyDeleteAll crucial decisions were correct,RC,PK and no PK were spot on and very quick.
Dealt with players well,booked who he needed to and let the game flow.
Common sense by him to not show RC to Raphinha (absolutely would have been deserved)at the end cause then all the stories would be about referee.
Excellent, no other words.
Others that disagree are probably biased towards Barca or have something against Kovacs cause I cant see hiw this performance is not excellent.
You can't just accuse people of being biased because they disagree with you, man. That's ugly!
DeleteIf Man city or Arsenal vs PSG in UCL final this year who will referee the final?
ReplyDeleteIMO: Taylor if no English team in final, Vincic if English team in final.
DeleteWhere Makkelie
DeleteWith PSG advancing... for me, gone are Turpin's and Letexier's chance of whistling in the semis
ReplyDelete1st leg possible with the other side of the draw.
DeleteKuipers and Lahoz both did semi final legs even with Ajax and Barcelona still in the competition
Turpin only in the first match in the semi final between winner Man City/ Real Madrid Vs winner Arsenal/ Bayern Munich
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I don't know who is this Pavel Fernandez, who work with Marca. Every time when Kovacs have a spanish team this guy always said bad words about Kovacs. After, this match he sad that Kovacs should not referee also in 4th league of Spain. I found nothing about Pavel Fernadez as a a referee. I think Andujar Oliver is better specialized than Pavel Fernandez.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.instagram.com/pavel.fdez/
DeleteIt seems he is an assistant referee.
I think that for Marca is enough he works in refereeing.
Overall, I don't like Kovacs. But today the important decisions are all correct. both RC, PK, not penalty on Gundogan...
ReplyDeleteThis is true. But it was more than just taking correct decisions yesterday, it was his will to take decisions and to control the match without caring about popularity or media reactions. He acted strongly against bad behavious on the benches, was not afraid of big names (YC against Lewandowski, Mbappé), was aware of hard duels (especially Marquinhos vs Lewandowski) and took actions against time wasting attempts. Of course (ans Kovacs knows that too) he will be critizised and was more in the focus than he must have been but he did the referees job in a very challenging match and that was very pleasing to watch.
DeleteThat is why I think his performance must be praised and absolutely backed by UEFA.
The VAR referee in the match between Barcelona and PSG missed one situation after which he should have called the referee to the monitor. Ilkay Guendogan did not fall on his own, but because Vitinha hit him on the foot from behind with his thigh. If referee Istvan Kovacs had seen this, he should have awarded a penalty kick.
ReplyDeleteIn the 64th minute, with the score 1-3, Ilkay Guendogan played the ball to Ferran Torres. He played it to him, Guendogan received the ball in the penalty area, and Vitinha and Marquinhos ran up to him. The latter attacked the Barcelona player correctly, shoulder to shoulder. However, Vitinha, who had lost the ball race to Guendogan moments earlier, slowed down rapidly. He looked as if he was letting the German pass and wanted to avoid committing a foul on him. However, in fact, while still following his opponent, Vitinha hit him on the right foot with his left thigh. As a result, Guendogan's leg completely changed its path and hit his other leg. The German lost his balance and fell.
Referee Istvan Kovacs, who in general refereed this match excellently, judged this situation badly. He showed Guendogan a yellow card for allegedly malingering. The arbitrator had little chance of making the right decision. It was supposedly positioned correctly, in accordance with the rules of movement on the pitch, but in this situation a different angle of view or help from VAR was needed to make a correct assessment. Unfortunately, video referee Marco Fritz from Germany apparently missed one of the shots, which shows that Guendogan was not simulating or trying to force a penalty kick, but was actually knocked down by his opponent.
I believe the YC wasn’t for a dive as they restarted with a GK but rather for his protests
DeleteWhat are your predictions for the PSG - Real Madrid final? Do you still see Danny Makkelie here?
ReplyDeleteIn an ideal world, Makkelie should be in the mix, but this is not going to happen. But with this pairing I see no problem to appoint Taylor or Vincic.
DeleteIn every pairing without PSG I would prefer Makkelie.
Danny Makkelie should be the only name for the final, regardless of the teams. He was robbed of it in 2022, as he was robbed of a World Cup KO match in the same year.
DeleteDo I think UEFA will appoint the final referee on merit as they should? No. If the final is PSG-Real Madrid I would prefer Oliver over Vincic. Vincic just never good enough for a CL final for me
Personally I also rank the skills of Oliver higher, but the appointments of Vincic were far better and if an english, then Taylor should get the big appointment. He is older and already had some big UEFA games. It also seems that UEFA ranks him over Oliver.
DeleteI echo the comment written by EnglandREF.
ReplyDeleteOnce again yesterday the outcome of the game showed that it's impossible to apply LotG at very top level when it's about taking extremely crucial and rather unpopular decisions. Most of referees prefer to find alternative ways, otherwise they will be rejected by teams. That's very sad. Nothing is accepted anymore, and this trend is more visible in teams from certain countries.
We know that no comments about a referee's performance is something excellent because it means nobody has questioned the referee, but in case of very brave and correct decisions, a referee is questioned. See how many comments here on the blog. This is because today we see always a different refereeing, made of "smartness", trying to avoid unpopular decisions.
What should follow now? Committee is surely aware of that, it's easy to say they would have been definitely more pleased without all that storm, but they can't absolutely deny that referee has officiated an excellent game, so he must be supported.
The problem is that they didn't support Makkelie for a single decision (an alleged foul) and then everything happened. Now Kovacs was so brave to take the crucial decisions and then keeping his cool head against the dissent that followed. I'm very curious. If they back the Romanian now they do the expected thing, but this should have been made before. Today it's very easy for the team from Paris to be content, to be silent about refereeing, while it's hard for Barça.
All in all, the life of a referee at very top level seems definitely to be impossible today, if compared to past. Important reflections should be made about that.
Khafre! Everything you write is good, but yesterday Kovacs made a key mistake, especially VAR!!!
DeleteHi Chefren, I agree with you and others. UEFA has once again mishandled this situation. Keeping Makkelie away from PSG after a decision that was correct and praised by the media. However, they are too influenced by the clubs. Since 2021, there were plenty of opportunities for Makkelie to officiate a PSG match, especially an away game in the group stage when PSG was already qualified. Now, with the possibility of PSG reaching the final, they've nearly eliminated any chance for Makkelie to officiate, which can be attributed to their flawed appointment policy. Instead of standing by their people, political considerations are still prioritized over their leading figures. I'm curious about how they will handle Kovacs now in relation to Barcelona.
DeleteA Spanish newspaper wrote that El-Khalaidi is ‘the real president’ of the UEFA.
DeleteIt’s sad to say, but we can only admit that the Referee committee hasn’t been an independent body for a long, long time now.
Cakir treatment (after he didn’t whistle a penalty to Slovenia) was examplary. Unfortunately :/
"the life of a referee at very top level seems definitely to be impossible today, if compared to past. Important reflections should be made about that." I would disagree. Look at what happened to the ref and his linesman (both Belgian citizens) at the end of the 1930 WC Final: "Langenus and Christophe rush without showering to the port where the boat with the European delegations is waiting for them." There are many other examples of the mistreatment of top ranking referees since 1930, all over the world.
DeleteBorussia Dortmund - Club Atlético de Madrid
ReplyDelete02' - Late challenge by 23DOR
https://streambug.org/cv/edfd4c
30' - YC 3ATM for reckless challenge
https://streambug.org/cv/e2bb6f
36' - retaliation by 19ATM after wrong play-on call
https://streambug.org/cv/2ee018
41' - potential 2YC 3ATM after challenge against GK
https://streambug.org/cv/d3fffe
43' - YC 26DOR for SPA impeding; dissent after being cautioned
https://streambug.org/cv/ac403d
45+1' - wrong YC 22ATM for reckless use of arm
https://streambug.org/cv/9c55a2
47' - deliberate landing on the opponent by 2ATM?
https://streambug.org/cv/e1400f
54' - delaying the restart by 24ATM
https://streambug.org/cv/d64746
68' - well spotted handball by 17ATM, possible SPA?
https://streambug.org/cv/f6c64b
90+1', 90+4' - two play-on calls after careless-reckless challenges
https://streambug.org/cv/7a6e70
It is very unsurprising that almost all scene description involve ATM...
DeleteKhafre! Everything you write is good, but yesterday Kovacs made a key mistake, especially VAR!!!
ReplyDeleteAs long as grey areas are not used to protect referees in all cases, but to attack them in all cases, one (e.g. UEFA) should really work on reducing them and making very clear for everyone what the one(!) correct decision is in situations like the Araujo RC and the Gündogan non-penalty.
ReplyDeleteLooking back on Kovac's performance, I think the key decisions were good. Continuing play instead of a DOGSO and red card could also have been supported. This was the most unpopular decision, which is not necessarily wrong. But with minimal contact and the attacker trying to jump in the penalty area, you could have gotten away with it. But if you whistle, then there is no other solution. His approach to protest and unsporting behavior was excellent! A few yellow cards, on the other hand, were unnecessary and too harsh. The penalty in the second half was perfectly spotted with good cooperation with the ASR. However, for this slight contact, Barcelona should also have been awarded a penalty, where the defender did not play the ball and touched the leg of the Barca attacker. That would have been more consistent and could have prevented a lot of frustration at Barcelona. Kovac was not influenced by others and that was good to see, but on the other hand, I missed a bit of humanity. It was too clinical overall.
ReplyDeleteAnthony Taylor/ Michael Oliver now unlikely for a semi final match- both have had controversy with Dortmund in the past (Taylor in PSG vs Dortmund especially). Only chance is Real Madrid vs Bayern Munich.
ReplyDeleteEuropa League potentially for Oliver (not possible for Taylor with Italian/ English Teams)
Conference is possible but only one game available if Aston Villa get through, plus Florientina may rule out Taylor.
Does anyone really remember that match? It was a deserved red card from memory. Oliver probably can’t go there, red for Hummels was a terrible decision and more recent
DeleteSmall observation:
ReplyDeleteESF posted a long list of incidents of Vincic' game. However, this wasn't posted or noticed by anyone else here. Just to highlight how 'shielded' Vincic’ was (again). All eyes were on Barca-PSG. Yet we all start to realise why. Vincic is walking the same path as Turpin in 2022. Remember Poland vs Estonia? Deserved? Definitely not.
In February 2024, Ceferin revealed he would step down at the end of his current period, instead of a 4th run. I’ve read elsewhere that, before he agreed to step down, he made an arrangement to give Vincic’ the final this year. Just like at the end of 2021, when Batta stepped down and was replaced by Björn Kuipers. Part of the deal: Turpin would handle the final 2022 in case of no major mistakes. This is lobbyism at its finest.
I’m sure that Danny Makkelie knows for some time he is not the #1 candidate. I followed his domestic season. At the end of 2023 I saw an hungry referee, however at the start of 2024 his body language and focus has significantly changed. I see a referee who does not believe in his own chances.
Always over analyzing Makkelie
DeleteGerman magazine kicker gave the best possible mark for Vincic, writing "Vincic was in complete control of the fiercely contested encounter over 90 minutes and was partly responsible for the outstanding game with his confident management".
ReplyDeleteI watched Kovacs this morning (had Vincic in the background yesterday and thought, like kicker, he had a very good game).
ReplyDeleteMy first reflection from Barcelona-Paris is that I'm surprised that Samuel, Peter and others see the 64' situation as a penalty. Actually it is a clear schwalbe by Gundogan: he takes too heavy a touch, the ball is out of his spell and into the possession of Paris no.5, before the Barca player deliberately (knowing he has lost possession) kicks the back leg of Paris no.17 in order to generate a contact. People laugh at me for my assertion 'football was MUCH better at assessing duels in the 1980s and replays make things LESS clear', but this is a perfect example for that thesis. I cannot be uneqivocal enough here: this is NEVER a foul. Correct decision, no penalty. Then you can get into the discussion "well for self-preservation, the replay shows a contact, blah blah blah" but on the actual merits of the scene, this is NOT a foul.
Calls for any mark higher than 8,6(/7) are exaggerated though, imo. Contrary to eg. the last WC final, the 'managing the game' level of difficulty was absolutely at normal for a CL quarterfinal (surprisingly so given the number of key calls I guess). Both the red card, even if Barcola took a deliberately heavy touch in order to generate the 'crash' with Araujo, and the penalty to the guests, were without any doubt.
I want also to address the point that Peter raises that Kovacs showed a "lack of humanity". I agree, that is the point - the Romanian is best suited by adopted a fearless law-enforcer approach (à la Larrionda from his WC games), closely following play with his excellent fitness. All referees bring something different to the table and it is good that there is a range of styles among the élite referees of UEFA. With respect, this is obviously something Rosetti has (rightly) realised and you see the Romanian appearing in games like Milan-Napoli, Panathinaikos-Marseille, (the Arabian Gulf Cup), and so on. Kovacs doesn't have the charisma of Orsato, Marciniak and would fall below them in a 'strict' analysis - but that is absolutely okay!
Finally, I agree it is important that UEFA back Istvan Kovacs after this courageous and very good performance. A direct appointment to the EL final having skipped the semifinal rounds would be deserved, in my book.
Clips:
Red card to Aruajo — https://www.streambug.io/cv/67260c
Expulsion for Xavi — https://streambug.org/cv/8cd026
Penalty to Paris — https://www.streambug.io/cv/dc6a1f
No pen to Barca — https://www.streambug.io/cv/2d4ec0
Offside, so no pen — https://www.streambug.io/cv/11d3d2
Just to give my opinion about that penalty call by Barça, since I was asked many times by Samuel. Best decision by referee, play on. No doubts. If called, VAR must support for the minimum contact (situation explained by Mikael), but I would never like a penalty like this. VAR shouldn't call for all contacts, so for me not a mistake, rather, a good decision.
DeleteI gave myself a task to review all the debatable scenes from this game and I can only repeat my opinion from last night: a very good and brave performance by Kovacs. He adopted a style that works best for him, and I can only agree with Mikael in praising such a choice.
DeleteAs for the individual KMI scenes, I agree with Kovacs in all of them. There is zero doubt for me about Araujo's RC and the penalty to PSG, and, like Mikael, I just cannot see a foul by the defender on Gundogan in 64'. It's just my opinion and I can be wrong, but there is just no foul there, only Gundogan creating a contact. That is how I read that situation.
All things considered, a very good performance for my taste, which makes Kovacs a prime candidate for the EL final in my personal ranking.