Tuesday, 3 July 2018

2018 FIFA World Cup Match 56: Colombia - England (discussion #3)

Third and last part of the discussion about Colombia - England, officiated by Mark Geiger. 
Match #56
Moscow, 3 July 2018 20:00 CET
Colombia - England
Referee: Mark Geiger (USA)
Assistant Referee 1: Joe Fletcher (CAN)
Assistant Referee 2:  Frank Anderson (USA)
Fourth Official: Matthew Conger (NZL)
Fifth Official: Simon Lount (NZL) Tevita Makasini (TGA)
VAR: Danny Makkelie (NED)
AVAR1: Pawel Gil (POL)
AVAR 2: Carlos Astroza (CHI)
AVAR 3: Mauro Vigliano (ARG)

125 comments:

  1. Am I the only one, whom seems the body language of Geiger is not very confident? He does not stands very strong

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Trust me. You are not alone. He instills no confidence in the players. Not does he exude presence or authority on the pitch.

      Delete
    2. I disagree with this. His signals are very strong and confident. I don't think those are his issue.

      Delete
    3. Brych exudes calmness and tranquility yet he's able to manage matches a whole lot better.

      A strong loud whistle and firm arm signals are simple things. It's all the other intricacies that are hard. If Geiger doesn't have them by now. And hasn't learned how to maximize the few things that he has going for him naturally by now. Then he's going to continue to be a "small match" referee who seizes up and fails on the big stage.

      On a side note. It doesn't help him at all that he officiates in MLS for Peter Walton. A league that has very little to no referee accountability.

      Delete
    4. Maybe strong, but definitely not confident ;) there is something about science of the body language

      Delete
  2. Irregular save now for the penalty missed by Colombia?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. For me irregular! Not only moving too early but even changing position by that.

      Delete
    2. Irregular. The england GK pratically in PEN mark. But its Geiger

      Delete
    3. And guys. Please see it again. Is GK from England started 20-30 cm BEHIND his line ? Yes for me and clearly irregular one...

      Delete
    4. That responsibility falls on AR1 Joe Fletcher who was on the goal line. Through the com's devices he should have advised Geiger of this prior to the kick being taken.

      This tactic is being used more and more by keepers to circumvent the Laws of the Game.

      Delete
  3. @Soham: Heheh, sorry for missunderstanig Soham, my mistake than :). But as I said I agree, no crucial mistakes from Geiger which is the most important thing. But who ever is tonight at stadium as referee assessor will have a long conversation with Geiger tonight.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Pl. Collina is there as it's Moscow :(

      Delete
    2. Sorry my man but Geiger was terrible, the second Colombian goal was legit, no reason to stop the game

      Delete
  4. At the end the fairer and better team won.
    Geiger will go home, that‘s sure. It was the worst refereeing performance at this WC so far.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. England was the better team because Geiger played for them all match long, what a prick

      Delete
    2. He's a better VAR referee than on the field. He lets the players get at him.

      Delete
  5. @Soham to continue our previous discussion, you mentioned Cakir having a strong personality that would allow him to control a game like this. I see Cakir as the anti-Pitana in terms of physical build. What in your opinion does Cakir do to show this "personality?"

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Cakir Kuipers Faghani just naturally "have it". When you don't "have it" then you have to be a by The Laws of the Game referee. Diedhou isn't quite there so he calls it tight and uses his cards when needed. And it works greatly for him

      Delete
    2. Cakir also does struggle with acceptance initially because of his small physical build... But he has a natural authority, strong personality and also an ability to remain super calm under pressure situations... Players respect that sooner or later!

      Geiger's panick-striken, nervous and scared looks under high pressure situations obviously doesn't help his case of getting more acceptance from players!

      Delete
    3. You have to see cakir on turkey league,,he has great experience about fan and player pressure,,so it's not interesting for me, cl and wc is nothing for him

      Delete
    4. Benito Armando Archundia (Mexico) is only 1.70 meters tall which is 5 Ft 6 Inches tall. Not very tall at all. Yet he never had the problems Geiger has. But regardless of his short stature he was a "giant" of a referee on the pitch because he had everything else.

      Delete
    5. Excellent point Bugra, if someone can referee in Turkey I don't think anything can phase him anymore!

      Delete
    6. Yeap especially Fenerbahçe Galatasaray and Beşiktaş matches has unbelievable atmosphere like a hell

      Delete
    7. Yeah that's true... Atmosphere in some Turkish derby matches are just tremendous... But Cakir just has that natural authority about him and Geiger simply doesn't!

      Delete
    8. Anyone here remembering Monsieur Wurtz from FRA - the quickest refereeing mouse of the world, so little, but SO GREAT and highky respected?
      And I remember years ago a player embracing Cakir after a game after being sent off. He thanked him abd asked him friendly to leave the place he still was not allowed to be on. Do not remember who it was but Cakir and even Brych are totally respected even when they make mistakes generally by CL players

      Delete
    9. No games like that in MLS. The league in the US is still about a hey lets go out and have a kick around type of league. No media scrutiny. No overly obsessed fan clubs who make a "home game" feel like a home game.

      Delete
    10. That's true Sheriff,,and I have no idea about iran league,, anybody has idea ? Because faghani looks very comfortable under pressure also,, because of iran league or it's just him personality??

      Delete
    11. Persian players and fans a very passionate. And doing a Persepolis F.C. v Esteghlal F.C at the Azadi Stadium in front of 78,000 fans(men) is a daunting assignment.

      US "Soccer" lacks that fan passion. It showed when the US failed to qualify. It was an overall "oh well" type of attitude in the country. So no high pressure high intensity matches for US referee's to grow in.

      Delete
  6. 400+ comments for Mark Geiger. Unfortunately for him. The amount of pages were needed because of his overall poor performance. The saying goes, referee's shouldn't be the focus of the match. But he made himself overly visible and present. Thank you Russia, but CONCACAF as a confederation says "good bye"

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Cesar Ramos? Joel Aguilar?

      Delete
    2. Aguilar must have not been rated highly. As he wasn't considered for a Round of 16 match. And I don't really see him in a QF.

      In a dream world I'd love to see Ramos again. But too many referee's have been better in each and every one of their matches and because of this are more deserving.

      However I will say that both Ramos and Aguilar are more deserving at this point than Geiger

      Delete
  7. wanna ask a question during penalty shootout which AR stays by the goal line and who stays at the centre circle

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AR1 stays at the goal line and AR2 stays at the centre circle as far as I know!

      Delete
    2. Typically it's based on what goal the penalties are taken on. The AR on that half of the field will be on the goal line and the other AR manages the players n the center circle.

      Delete
    3. No, it is just the assistant referee involved on that side during the game, indeed this evening it was AR2.

      Delete
    4. AR1 was on the goal line I think.

      Delete
    5. Chefren, but Joe Fletcher was AR1(near the technical areas) during the game. And Frank Anderson was on the far side as AR2.

      Delete
    6. Sorry it looked to be Anderson....

      Delete
    7. AR1 was on the goalline tonight,

      Delete
    8. Fletcher is a black man and has a bald head

      Delete
    9. Joe Fletcher was the one on goal line duty and dat was Anderson's area

      Delete
    10. For penalty kick during the match it's the AR in that area... For penalty shootout in the tiebreakers it's always AR1 on the goal line!

      Delete
    11. Same was the case for Kuipers in Spain v Russia... The shootout took place in Zeinstra's half but van Roekel was on the goal line!

      Delete
    12. Ya soham the first statement I know thanks about the second that should be it I will try checking pitanas ARs and kuipers ARs to confirm their position during the shootout

      Delete
    13. Pitana's one I didn't note too closely but I guess it was Maidana... Please do let us know here what the findings are once you view footages from those 2 matches! :)

      Delete
    14. 100% Joe Fletcher on KFTPM. He was AR1 and switched sides. I have worked with him, so methinks he won't be confused with Frank Anderson (who looks more like me). I don't recall a single game I have done where I bring none other than AR1 (generally more experienced) to goal line with me.

      Delete
  8. Replies
    1. A probably a nightmare? :D

      Delete
    2. Now I need to see what I how the things went wrong. I am sorry for Geiger, he had a good 2 games here. Not a good way to end his WC career.

      Delete
  9. This VAR intervention in first half should be investigated, I didn't see any official gestures by Geiger. With the doubt, I can't officially report that there was a VAR intervention in Colombia - England, leading to a decision.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My best guess is that 4th Official or AR caught the act and reported it to Geiger. VAR would have confirmed that YC was not a clear and obvious error. Geiger would trust his team on this one and not make a further show of going to OFR with Colombian players already doing whatever they wanted.

      Delete
  10. Is this is a record comments from the beginning for this blog? Not just wc 2018

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. For a single performance, maybe yes!

      Delete
    2. I think this blog getting more popular and lot of people start to writing here, that's good

      Delete
  11. Well, Geiger lost control and authority, but in very difficult match did not make any crucial mistakes. I think he will be VAR or at least AVAR in final ;)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sorry but he can be ball boy in final with this performance:)

      Delete
    2. In all fairness and with all due respect. That would be a slap in the face of the VAR's who were selected exclusively as VAR's and have done an amazing job.

      VAR1 Makkeile
      VAR2 Zwayer
      AVAR Astroza
      VAR4 Vigliano

      Delete
    3. Makkelie with a remarkable good VARjob always here! So Kuipers and Makkelie for final!

      Delete
    4. If not Kuipers. Then Makkelie for sure

      Delete
  12. OT
    Later this year. In keeping with the referee exchange between CONCACAF and AFC. A trio from CONCACAF will handle an AFC Champions League semifinal match. So I ask my fellow referee from AFC. What CONCACAF trio would you trust and like to see in that semifinal match?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mark Geiger or Cesar Ramos would be interesting in an AFC CL semi-final!

      Delete
    2. Irmatov did the CONCACAF CL Semifinal this year.

      So my guess is that it will similarly be an older CONCACAF ref: Geiger or Aguilar, perhaps. When are those semifinal matches?

      Delete
    3. Soham, who is more suited style wise to manage Asian teams temperaments and intricacies?

      1st Legs to be played on 2-3 October
      2nd Legs to be played on 23-24 October

      Delete
    4. Yeah, I have no idea how Asian teams play.

      Delete
    5. If it's eve remotely similar to South American / Latin style. Then for the sake and integrity of the match, it can't be Geiger or any US referee.

      Delete
    6. What do you have against the US Sheriff? It seems like you bash our referees or even our league and fans whenever you get the chance to.

      Delete
    7. Just going based off of performances. And yeah, I tend to favor Mexican referee's and Liga MX. But again, on field performances typically prove me right. However, when Ramos faltered in his first match. I was just as hard on him. I even suggested that he deserved to be sent home after his 1st match.

      You cannot disprove the on field facts that Mexican referee's have over all in World Cups out performed US referee's. And that Mexican clubs are still better than what MLS has.

      Delete
  13. Hi guys, i would like to say that I am really sad to read a lot of these comments. We are all referees and we all know how difficult this job can be. Ok, Geiger was not good today and when someone makes a mistake, we have to say it but there is no need to make fun of a referee. This is really painfull to read and I think the least we can do is have some respect for the referees. I mean if we dont’t show respect, how do we expect to have respect from other people. Just something to think about...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The thing is, respect is not a given as a referee. Just like everything else, it is earned. And that is what most of us are criticizing Geiger. For not doing what was necessary to start earning the respect from the players

      Delete
    2. I agree Enes Cavus, perhaps everyone went a bit too far, at least in keeping respect for the referee.

      I will try to make an exhaustive analysis in the morning.

      Delete
    3. I agree Enes! Something I've noticed all too often on this blog! We should be supporting referees not vilifying them!

      Delete
  14. A tough match to officiate. For a moment it looked it might turn into a street brawl. Geiger did what he had to do to maintain control. The only thing I didn't like was the long debates. He should just back away, blow the whistle, and get on with it. However, as it is probably his last match in this tournament and he is 43 and can't work in Qatar, he can be proud of what he's achieved, especially since he's American. Lots of referees dream of being FIFA elite, but Mark Geiger was one.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Excellent summary, Ken. It definitely would have helped him a lot if he didn't continue the discussions at restarts for so long.

      Delete
  15. Had to work and missed the game. 3 pages of discussion!!
    Must have been a disaster for Geiger.

    ReplyDelete
  16. I just came back from the stadium. I say just one thing: Geiger is a joke. It'seems shamefull that someone like Hategan stayed home and Geiger is here.
    I will write more when I will be back in Romania.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. But can the both be compared? They aren't the same in terms of their level of experience, and neither has Hategan ever faced such a challenging match in a huge game at the biggest stage i.e. at the World Cup... Single handedly knocking a country out of WC by awarding a horrendous penalty in the playoffs can't get a referee selected for the final tournament!

      Delete
    2. Clement Turpin
      Much younger and vastly less experienced than Geiger. Yet I can confidently say that he would not have allowed this match to descend into the mess that it became.

      How can I say this with so much confidence? It is because of his performance in the Arsenal v Atl. Madrid SemiFinal 1st Leg. Where he excelled at doing what Geiger completely failed to do.

      I'm sorry, but if using the guidelines and directives is failing you. Then you have to fall back on the style that you selected i the first place.
      Brych didn't abandon his style and it worked so well for him in regards to match control, player accepetance, and card use.

      Delete
    3. Sheriff, I respect your opinion but that Arsenal vs Atletico Madrid game was nothing like this one. It was challenging and Turpin handled it well, but a completely different style of play from the teams. That game was a very "European" style while this game today was straight out of CONCACAF/CONMEBOL in terms of style.

      Delete
    4. What I am getting at, is that Turpin was able to adjust to match on the fly. He fell back on what he knows and what he does well. A great referee is able to sense this and make the necessary modifications to his or her approach.

      And Geiger is from the US, correct? And the US is within CONCACAF, correct? And yet he once again showed massive deficiencies with a style he should be very familiar with?

      Delete
    5. I forgot to mention. That if you've watched Atletico Madrid enough. Yes they may be a Spanish(European) team. But "Cholo" Simeone has definitely instilled a very South American style to his players. So that match was not that far off from what Geiger had. A team with a South American mentality versus a British team.

      Delete
    6. Fair enough, Spanish teams are kind of like the middle ground between European and Latino styles.

      Delete
    7. I don't disagree, Hategan can solve very challenging hectical matches in FIFA, Brazil - Iraq, and has developed moreover since. Any referee would have struggled last night, one must say that.

      But this is called the WORLD CUP, and not the BEST TEAM CUP, so there has to be referees from all over the world. And Geiger showed to be a good referee, eg good performance in Spain - Chile et al.

      Delete
    8. 2014 Spain-Chile? If that's the match you're referring to. That was four years ago. Things and referee's change. Take Irmatov for example. In 2010 I can comfortably say that he was deserving of the Final based solely on performances. In 2014 he was still okay, but not as good. And now it's 2018 and he hasn't been half of what he was 8 years ago. Referee's can't live off of past glories, nor should they be assigned based off of it either.

      Delete
  17. I am sure even Hategan in this match would have faced exactly the same nightmare. He is still a big talent, but with problems being respected cause a lack of natural authority. Like Geiger and some others. There aren't so many refs with the "aura" of a Collina, Pitana, Brych, Kuipers, Cakir...

    ReplyDelete
  18. Hategan is very young and he couldn`t have a game like Columbia vs England. but in Romania he has a lot of similar games like yesterday night, with many dissents from the players. and somehow i think he will get skomina route, because the slovenian wasn`t selected for brasil 2014.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hategan isn't THAT young, he'll turn 38 in less than two weeks...

      Delete
  19. Come on people, do the players not have to take most of the blame/responsibility for this match!?? Everyone eager to blame Mark but it was the players actions that caused everything not the referees inactions!

    ReplyDelete
  20. There is no natural authority, natural can only be feeling in the referee kit(someone of you should have felt it).
    You talk about Cakir and his success in terms of authority, well, best to talk with him, but i can tell you it is a lot of hard work off the field, simple as that, not smth supernatural as you mentioned. Pitana should done that too, it is not only fitness.

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  24. Poor performance by ref, worst of tourney by VAR.

    Ref invited a lot of trouble by holding court at every stoppage. Sometimes it is needed, often the best thing he can do is get away and signal that play initiate asap.

    Was VAR even there?

    Head butt in H1 was red card. It matters nil that head hit chin after deflecting off chest. It was intentional head butt to chest and yc indicates it was observed by the officiating crew. No appropriate intervention by VAR, ref needed to see what we saw before issuing just the yc.

    Second PK for England was 100% warranted. This would have been difficult without VAR as ref uncertainty was understandable due to the unusual challenge. If those at mission control had not played the sport I would understand, but the awkward way the England attacker fell was not how one falls when trying to sell a foul, that should have alerted them what to look for and they clearly missed it. Worst moment of tourney for VAR system. Replays clearly showed--especially the one showed near 82nd minute I believe--that there was nothing close to contact of the ball and the Columbia defender's confused right foot of outstretched leg made contact with the left foot of England attacher's left foot causing the awkward crumble to the ground. The contact was very slight, but very severe to a player in full sprint, it was also extremely clear in regard to what we saw on replay, and the technology of the VAR easily slows this down and magnifies the look needed. This was the text book example of when VAR is to intervene and it did not happen!

    I have other criticisms of how game was officiated, I will stop now though as this post is long enough.

    ReplyDelete
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    Cakir and his success in phrases of authority, properly, pleasant to talk with him, however i can tell you it is lots of tough work off the field, easy as that,

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