The fourth set of UEFA CL appointments with VAR. Games to be played on Wednesday 20 February 2019. Thank to kronikasedziowska for the appointments.
FC Schalke 04 (GER) - Manchester City FC (ENG)
Referee: Carlos del Cerro Grande (ESP)
Assistant Referee 1: Juan Carlos Yuste Jiménez (ESP)
Assistant Referee 2: Roberto Alonso Fernández (ESP)
Fourth Official: José María Sánchez Martínez (ESP)
Video Assistant Referee: Alejandro José Hernández Hernández (ESP)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Juan Martínez Munuera (ESP)
UEFA Referee Observer: Mehmet Murat Ilgaz (TUR)
UEFA Delegate: Jean-Paul Mievis (BEL)
20 February 2019, 21:00 CET - Madrid (Wanda Metropolitano)
Club Atlético de Madrid (ESP) - Juventus FC (ITA)
Referee: Felix Zwayer (GER)
Assistant Referee 1: Thorsten Schiffner (GER)
Assistant Referee 2: Marco Achmüller (GER)
Fourth Official: Tobias Welz (GER)
Video Assistant Referee: Bastian Dankert (GER)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Sascha Stegemann (GER)
UEFA Referee Observer: Oğuz Sarvan (TUR)
UEFA Delegate: Claude Runavot (FRA)
Very good appointment for both referees. However, I have to stress Zwayer's game. It's a huge one.
ReplyDeleteBig assignment for Zwayer, he has a big reputation now inside committee, but I had already noticed that. Similar pattern to Makkelie, I would say, maybe the German slightly below the Dutch but he is there.
ReplyDeleteFor sure this also helps committee in keeping more experienced referees for the second leg in case of need.
In Gelsenkirchen it was not difficult to guess that del Cerro Grande could have been there, the most suitable game for a new Elite.
The only argument against del Cerro Grande was, that he had Manchester already on MD3. But yes, otherwise it makes a lot of sense.
DeleteFor second legs, we are already restricted on Brych, Kuipers, Mazic and Turpin (+ Marciniak, if fit) regarding experienced/top referees. Double appointments might be necessary.
Soares Dias could be an option as well, given his experience with VAR in Portugal, but his appointments in group stage doesn't play in favor of an assignment in CL KO stage. In addition, in case I think one could have expected him for a first leg rather than a second leg.
DeleteWe have Karasev who officiated with VAR at WC... to be honest, I think it is difficult to see him in KO stage after having also missed an assignment in group stage due to his performance.
Also, I'm really sorry for Hategan, who could pay the fact that he is coming from a country without VAR, but he would have deserved an assignment in CL KO stage without doubts. At the same time, one can consider him among the candidates for EL final (but here the same problem, VAR will be there).
Maybe committee plays with the aspect that there'll already decided matches like City-Schalke which could be suitable for refereeslike Soares Dias
DeleteYes, Soares Dias is quite possible for City-Schalke, even if it is still open, I think.
DeleteKarasev (and Undiano) seems impossible after only 1 GS match. Aytekin and Gil Manzano could come into play, if they really focus on VAR experience - but not very likely.
Karasev is injured (hip injury), probably the international season is over for him.
DeleteSkomina is also coming from the country without VAR, but he demonstrated that he could overpass this situation.
ReplyDeleteBut he made experience with VAR at WC
DeleteI dare to make predictions.
ReplyDeleteDOR-TOT: Turpin - VAR: Bastien/Letexier
RMA-AJA: Collum - VAR: Irrati/Guida
PSG-MNU: Mazic - VAR: Zwayer/Stegemann
POR-ROM: Brych - VAR: Dankert/Fritz
JUV-ATL: Marciniak - VAR: Raczkowski/Gil (if fit)
MCI-SCH: Hategan - VAR: Soares/Martins
BAR-LYO: Oliver - VAR: Taylor/Pawson
BAY-LIV: Kuipers - VAR: Makkelie/van Boekel
I nearly agree :D
ReplyDeleteDOR-TOT: Marciniak
RMA-AJA: Collum
PSG-MNU: Mazic
POR-ROM: Brych
JUV-ATL: Turpin
MCI-SCH: Hategan
BAR-LYO: Oliver
BAY-LIV: Kuipers
:)
DeleteJust read Taylor's Seville appointment. UEFA putting a ref in two games in a row could also mean they prepare him for CL. Maybe Taylor instead of Oliver as center referee then.
My current predictions:
ReplyDeleteDOR-TOT: Marciniak (if not fit: Sidiropoulos) - VAR: Raczkowski/Gil
RMA-AJA: Hategan - VAR: Orsato/Valeri
PSG-MNU: Skomina - VAR: van Boekel/Gözübüyük
POR-ROM: Mazic - VAR: Zwayer/Stieler
JUV-ATL: Turpin - VAR: Rainville/Letexier
MCI-SCH: Soares Dias - VAR: Martins/Miguel
BAR-LYO: Brych - VAR: Dankert/Fritz
BAY-LIV: Kuipers - VAR: Makkelie/Kamphuis
By the way in Supercup is also with VAR, so Hațegan can't be there, because we don't have VAR in Romania. He could by tried in an match who couldn't put many problems. For me is more sure that Dortmund - Tottenham suits him, because he had Schalke in CL, in his last game.
ReplyDeleteDo you understand, why center referees are appointed as AVAR? AVAR should be assistant referees, shouldn't they?
ReplyDeleteIndeed, assistant referees would be a better option because they are offside experts more than referees and they could solve situations if needed, however I can guess that UEFA has the idea to improve VAR and this is only something like a first step, maybe in future we will have assistant referees behind the monitor as well. Here in Italy on last season, when VAR was introducted, AVAR was a main referee, this led to some problems of offside interpretations in crucial situations. Starting from this season there is regularly a main referee as VAR and an assistant referee as AVAR. That's the better choice.
DeleteOne could also think that for UEFA at moment was easier to work only with all referees, but in future this could change.
I disagree. For me it's more logical and helpful when the AVAR is a main referee. Most of the offside situations can be easily assessed by the VAR. The very very difficult ones will happen occasionally only. But in every match there are many situations like tackles, handball, dogso, holdings etc, in which a referee AVAR can be more important (value) then an assistant referee.
DeleteI thought Zwayer's countrymen Brych would do Atletico v Juventus but he must be being saved for second leg matches.
ReplyDeleteBrych after what happened in group stage can't handle Juventus again... also, interesting to see that Fritz was not appointed as fourth official.
Deleteah I'd forgotten about that.
DeleteFritz has been appointed as AAR for Siebert in UEL.
DeleteRefereeing highlights of Cüneyt Çakır in Lyon v Barcelona
ReplyDeletehttps://ok.ru/video/1249188579948
https://tv.dfb.de/video/exklusiver-einblick-in-das-video-assist-center-in-koeln/24432/
ReplyDeleteGerman video that shows how the VARs work there. Might be interesting to watch.
8'Maybe a bit soft YC for Costa.
ReplyDeleteNo, fully correct. Unsporting behaviour in the wall. Well done. Tough start for Zwayer.
DeleteWow Atletco players are very aggressive in the first minutes. Extremely difficult for Zwayer. He showed an early YC moving forwards in the wall agains Diego Costa what didn‘t make things easier...Hopefully Zwayer can stay calm because so far nothing wrong for me
ReplyDeleteVery challenging start for Zwayer, I noticed a very alert referee.
ReplyDeleteHe is doing well so far, having to face many complaints by Atletico players. YC was fully justified, he had given a warning but player did again that and he was booked.
Zwayer wants to keep everything under control, so far a very smart refereeing in the early 14 minutes. I really perceive that he is matured as Elite referee. Let's see how he will perform.
I see this differently Chefren. For me this YC was not clever. Better to show your personality here and start with a strong (verbal) warning. Besides this he had no acceptance of the players in the beginning and during this period I missed a strong personality/leadership. Hope he will survive this match.
DeleteDifferent opinions, you are welcome, I respect your ideas.
DeleteSo far, I think that Zwayer is in full control of the game, Atletico players are always difficult to manage. YC was a quite forced choice because before that he had already warned the player.
Maybe the referee and the players can meet up after the match for a cup of tea and talk long into the night. But during the match it's I already warned you once so bamm he's your very deserved yellow card.
DeleteIn Gelsenkirchen a possible foul before 0-1 scored by City, but after that foul, Schalke gained again the possession of the ball, so attacking phase should be broken there. Impossible to make an intervention.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I indeed think that it was foul. Del Cerro quite unsure after the goal scored.
I also think, that it was not the same attacking phase. I was surprised, that they checked it that long.
DeleteIMO missed foul before City goal. Long check by VAR but at the end decided not to recommend OFR.
ReplyDeleteImpossible to intervene as Schalke gained again possession of the ball after that foul.
DeleteYep. Del Cerro was kind of "lucky".
DeleteVAR intervention in Madrid for an obejctive decision: penalty changed in free kick, foul outside the box.
ReplyDeleteVAR in Madrid! Correct as well, foul happened outside the penalty area
ReplyDeleteVar changed from PK to FK in Madrid. Correct decision.
ReplyDeletePK decision in Madrid taken back to free kick after VAR intervention.
ReplyDeleteMissed YC, IMO.
Maybe he kind of forgot it after the VAR intervention
DeleteCorrect intervention, but IMO missed YC for SPA.
ReplyDeleteCorrect decision to change from penalty to free kick in Madrid. Foul (?) was outside the penalty box.
ReplyDeleteI can’t understans how can the Atletico players protest against the situation! That’s crazy for me, they also have VAR in regular championship matches!
I missed something in the brackets: Foul (YC?)
DeleteThe protest are likely to be for the missed YC.
DeleteThey protested the lack of a yellow card.
Delete@George I hope so but I’m not really sure about that...
Delete100% missed yellow card. This is a problem with VAR when you have an objective review without an OFR.
ReplyDeleteBecause Zwayer IMMEDIATELY went to the check, he didn't give the yellow card right away like he should. When the VAR tells him it's actually a free kick and not a penalty, the opportunity to give the yellow card gets lost.
Zwayer should have booked the player for a not genuine SPA, after having changed the original decision.
ReplyDeleteI think this was a clever call of the VAR. Frame by frame showes simulation and would have been a 2nd yellow card for Costa. But I support this FK. But then a clear YC missed for SPA.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, Athletico players have not started the match with good intentions. Constantly being aggresive and arguing with VAR even though they have it in their own league. Zwayer needs to start booking some of these players.
ReplyDeleteThat's how Atlético plays. Aggressive, competitive, lots of dissent and group pressure to referee...not an easy team to officiate so far.
DeleteLooks like del Cerro missed a clear penalty in Gelsenkirchen and he will have to make an OFR.
ReplyDeleteIt’s taking to long for an abvious OFR, maybe technical issues?
DeleteThat’s really strange... no OFR abut penalty awarded!
DeleteJust playing devils advocate. But is Otamendi not trying to get his arm out of the way of the ball and behind his back?
Deletedel Cerro called a penalty without making an OFR.
ReplyDeleteI'm quite shocked also by his body language, really nervous.
Irrespective we have to give him credit for taking the right decision
DeleteOMG what happens here???
ReplyDeleteI think that there are technical issues with the screens. That would justify the chat with the two captains.
DeleteI don’t know what the protocol says here. In Italy we had a similar issue in a couple of matches and VAR was “disabled” until the technical issue was solved.
Your assumption is confirmed by the commentators.
DeleteGerman TV confirmed that it's due to a technical problem
DeleteGerman TV reporter just confirmed, that the screen does not work.
DeleteWell, that was the only logical explanation. It looks like I can still read the labial ;)
DeleteI can imagine that it is terrible if your VAR tells you are unable to watch the incident because of technical issues. So, it was good to talk to the captains. However, talking about the technical issue, it is unacceptable to let the referees alone on the pitch. Technique has to work and this must be checked before the match. This is the actual procedure.
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ReplyDeleteSo Rossetti and co opted for referees with a lot of VAR experience but here we have a referee from a league with VAR who looks like he doesn't know how it works. I can't imagine it going any worse that it has gone so far tonight. Maybe hope for Taylor, Hategan and company.
ReplyDeleteDon't jump to conclusion am sure UEFA will explain what happened but we should look at the important picture here which is getting the right decision so we should just wait and see
DeleteOnly explanation is that screens at stadium for VAR don't work, otherwise, it is a very poor performance by del Cerro, without knowing how to use VAR and this would be unacceptable...
ReplyDeleteFor sure, Rosetti will have a lot to explain about this game.
Del Cerro is considered a "VAR expert" referee in Spain, as Makkelie in NL.
DeleteDel Cerro's (IMO) big weakness here:
ReplyDeleteHe's too confident about his ability to calm down players chatting with them, instead of punishing clear dissents.
I agree. He took way too long time to chat with them, trying calm everybody down. I understand the talk with the captains but after penalty was confirmed, that chat with Silva and co. was too long and not needed. But indeed it seems like he really believes in his ability to manage these situations without showing cards.
DeleteI also agree. So much dissent not punished. Any player can look at this and know they can get away with it, definitely with this referee.
DeleteNow correct PK + YC for holding by Del Cerro.
ReplyDeleteYes, definitely a correct call
DeleteCorrect penalty now by del Cerro. Let's wait for official explanations about the first penalty incident.
ReplyDeleteMissed YC for foul on Ronaldo.
ReplyDeleteAbout the second penalty, was the fouled player in offside?
ReplyDeleteIt didn’t look so to me
DeleteI don't think so.
DeleteBut even when he was in an offside position, he was fouled before getting involved in play (actually he didn’t get involved at all), so in my opinion penalty is the correct decision either way.
DeleteAny video about first penalty for Schalke?
ReplyDeleteSo if technical problems are confirmed, the question can be: is VAR allowed to intervene in the game and change a decision, even if the referee on the pitch doesn't have the chance to rewatch the incident?
ReplyDeleteMy honest answer would be NO. VAR should be used only if 100% working. When in Italy there are such problems, VAR is not used at all, even if the officials are there.
I disagree. If an OFR was to take place, it was because VAR and AVAR considered the situation as a clear mistake, with the input from del Cerro. If they consider it to be a penalty and del Cerro tells them that he missed it… why should a mistake allowed to stand when there are ways to prevent it?
DeleteAs far as I know, the VAR protocol allows decisions to be taken without OFR. It is just an instruction to use it in all matters of interpretation. The final decision still remained with the referee. If he thinks, the audio input is sufficient for a change of his decision, he can do it.
DeleteCommon sense also said to use it in this situation, I think.
But certainly an interesting question, which maybe nobody considered before. We have to wait for UEFA's statement to know it for the future.
I remember Guido Winkman in Germany whistleing a penalty after VAR review but without OFR. I guess it is allowed.
Delete@Referee 12: I guess you talk about the half time scene. If so, an OFR has taken place. But in the first weeks, Germany tried to avoid OFRs, which did not work well. So, it was changed very soon.
Delete@Ref_1707, not a half time incident, a few matches before. I will try to find out what match was it.
DeleteHe means Hamburg vs Stuttgart.
DeleteGiven the circumstance with the technical problems (OFR screens not available), I think del Cerro Grande handled the situation quite well. It was a good idea to inform the captains about the situation. Furthermore, it obviously took more time, because Hernandez needed to explain the pictures in detail, so that the referee could decide based on that.
ReplyDeleteIf technical problems are confirmed, I think UEFA will praise del Cerro's performance... despite missing a penalty and not giving the most reassuring feeling. The way he managed the decision however was very good, IMO, and given the circumstances (first round with VAR and all that), that will be considered by the Committee (I think).
ReplyDeleteI still perceive the performance of Del Cerro Grande in first half, without talking about VAR stuff, not an expected level.
DeleteI think it was foul before 0-1 and then the missed penalty. Two crucial situations, so far mark would be 7.4.
I agree, but I think UEFA will consider the exceptional circumstances.
DeleteI think, the foul before 0-1 is not enough for a crucial mistake. The reason for the goal was certainly something different...
DeleteNot really liking Zwayer tonight, he does not give a confident look and has that "deer in the headlights" expression on his face. Gets no respect from the players and his disciplinary line and foul detection is off. Çakir and Zwayer should have swapped games imo.
ReplyDeleteMaybe but Kuipers + Çakir (together on the pitch)
ReplyDeletewould have problems with the 'style' of Atletico Madrid
I don‘t see Zwayer as bad as you do. Of course he has some problems with autority but like DrMr said even the experienced ones would have problems to deal with Atletico. And about the penalty situation: In real time very difficult to spot because Costa took two steps more into the penalty area.
ReplyDeleteNo penalty for Atletico for this handball, I think it was not deliberate after Cristiano Ronaldo' header. A few later, correct YC by Zwayer.
ReplyDeleteGame still very challenging.
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ReplyDeleteThe most important criterion is that he pulls the arm away. normal position. Close to the body. How on earth can this be punishable?
DeleteThe OFR monitor obviously not working, this is a very difficult situation for the referee.
ReplyDeleteBut, I'm surprised noone has mentioned it so far. Everyone who has watched the last UEFA RAP will agree: This was no way (!) a deliberate handball.
Otherwise, remarkable that VAR checked the 0-1 goal so Long. Clearly a new situation, attacking phase finished. No need to check so long.
I also think this is worth bringing up. I know in Spain they have a much stricter interpretation of handball and this was an all Spanish referee crew so maybe this played a part.
Delete2nd YC for Otamendi by Del Cerro.
ReplyDeleteSecond YC to Otamendi a fully correct decision by del Cerro Grande.
ReplyDeleteNow VAR in Madrid,goal denied.
ReplyDeleteOFR by Zwayer in Madrid.
ReplyDeleteGerman VAR...
In my opinion this disallowed goal will be a very controversial decision. Really enough for a clear and obvious mistake? MMmhh...
ReplyDeleteThe last replay showed a push by morata on chiellini, not easy to spot for the ref. It’s a foul, no doubts for me.
DeleteBut the question is always the same: is this an obvious and clear error?
Fully correct for me. UEFA always states that if the attacker illegaly gains an advantage before scoring a goal, the goal is not valid. Good procedure as expected.
DeleteClear and obvious foul
DeleteThe most important thing I wonder is how can there be so many terrible camera angles? Same with the Costa situation. Fans who know nothing about referees need super clear camera angles to accept a decision. The ones shown were very unclear.
DeleteIf the referee has completely missed the push, it doesn't have to be clear and obvious (see WC final). It is sufficient, that the VAR thinks, the referee might change the decision after OFR. And obviously, Dankert was right with this assumption here.
DeleteGood job to find the best perspective, better than the TV directors btw.
On reply, on slow motion, every contact looks like a foul. VAR should be only in real time, not slow mo.
DeleteSimeone minute 71 after the disallowed VAR goal clearly applauding sarcastically and doing the ''it's over we give up'' gesture several times.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Although the defender exaggerate his fall, there is a clear push. But why Zwayer missed this clear push?
ReplyDeleteNow Atlético scored and the goal was allowed. There were some contacts in the box. No VAR intervention. Can we see a real difference with the previous goal?
ReplyDeleteClear foul also and then the player who committed the foul scored the goal. Intervention here would have been in line with the one before.
DeleteYes we can i think. At the disallowed goal there was one duel with a push by one player. At the goal there were numerous players who ran into each other and with contact by players of both teams
DeleteI couldn't see if anything happened there but my thought was if the ball wasn't out? The curve was very big and it looked like the ball went out and in before the goal but maybe not.
DeleteYes. First of all there was a clear perception by Zwayer. Then the intensity of the push is very low, common sense at this incident. Zwayer with some problems, good work by Dankert.
DeleteMaybe this was even more foul. But: in first minute VAR didn't intervene (no comments about this situation on this blog - interesting); whistled penalty annulled (big question is whether there was a foul at all), goal disallowed and probably Dankert said: Enough! That would be too many decisions against Atletico, and refs are humans.
DeleteTeo, very ironic comment. Give proof for your thoughts or at least some arguments. One can differ, I do not accept your conspiracy theories.
DeleteOk Ref 1707: give me your arguments why Dankert didn't call Zwayer to OFR!
DeleteYou are giving Ref1707 a hard task, Teo. Where should he know the arguments from? Ref1707, I suggest to call Mr Dankert if you have his number.
DeleteWell, nice try to throw the ball in my court as you are the one who did not give proof for your thoughts. But I‘ll do it although I‘m quite sure you won‘t argue on a basis of arguments.
Delete1.) I did not see the incident in the first minute. I cannot say anything about it.
2.) There was a contact, which occured outside the penalty area. As the whistle itself is supportable or at the very least not obviously wrong (the rule applies here as Zwayer had a clear perception) the question is inside or outside. As I said, the contact was outside so the VAR informs the referee without an OFR. YC for SPA was possible, too.
3.) The attacker blatantly pushed the defender in the back in order to gain an advantage. In the outcome, the defender is unable to jump for the ball. As the referee had no clear perception of the incident, the rule "clear and obvious error" does not apply. If it applied, one can discuss whether it was a clear and obvious mistake (there are arguments for both sides). So, the VAR invites the referee to have an OFR in order to get the best angles for taking a decision based on the pictures. Zwayer decided to disallow the goal. For me a correct call, indeed a correct procedure.
3.) The attacker made a slight, common push that was not too intense, not as intense to fall down. VAR checks the scene as a goal has been scored. Zwayer had a clear perception, so there had to be an obvious error if Dankert wanted to invite him to rewatch. This was not the case. So, again correct procedure.
I can understand that it is not easy to get used to the system. Sometimes there is more than one decision against your team. But, if we have a closer look, the procedures in Madrid were fine.
One can discuss about the performance in general, surely it was not the best. However, this is a different thing and has nothing to do with VAR.
@lucac: I tried. I would surely call him if I had his number. I met Zwayer once, but of course I‘m not in contact with him.
DeleteThis Atlético goal was more foul-deserving tham the previously disallowed...no clear line.
ReplyDeleteI agree, that's what we can point out. If you use VAR in the way you used it for the first goal, then you have to check everything in the second situation.
DeleteBut at the second goal, Zwayer had clear vision of the critical duel. So VAR could only intervene in case of a clear and obvious mistake, which it was rather not.
DeleteAt the first goal, he (probably) did not see the contact, so the OFR was justified by the missing perception.
There have been two similar incidents with different outcome by Zwayer: a handball inside the penalty area which came from a header and was clearly undeliberate was not given. Another handball, close to the midfield in which the ball came from a header too was given. IMO they were very similar situations.
ReplyDeleteAfter a quiet night last night VAR has been a disaster tonight. Both of those Athelti goals should have stood. First was disallowed second was allowed. No consistency. Also was the handball by Otamendi a clear and obvious ref error or a judgement call? Its nights like this when you wish VAR didnt exist. Then again, without VAR, Athletico would have had a wrong penalty... Uefa still has alot to work on about this issue and they could ruin the CL KO stages if this continues.
ReplyDeleteOne sided comment. If VAR did not exist Atletico would have got a wrong penalty. This intervention gave Juventus a Chance to go back into the game with 0-0. Otherwise, what happened in Gelsenkirchen is a worst case scenario of course.
DeleteI‘m not sure we all had the same angles... It was a clear and intense push before 1-0. Correct decision to disallow it.
DeleteEverything looks worse in slow motion. That was very theatrical from Chiellini. Players are playing/acting for VAR decisions. An intense push? I dont think so.
DeleteOk, good that you have this interpretation. The referee has watched the situation himself because very probably he did not see it in the pitch. So it's not a matter of VAR decisions. THE REFEREE DECIDED HERE! :)
DeleteI'm quite disappointed with the level of VAR knowledge among readers here.
ReplyDeleteThe pushing in the Atletico goal taken back after OFR surely falls under the missed serious incident principle. Zwayer probably did not spot the incident. In this case, the clear-and-obvious-principle does not apply. So arguing with 'clear line' makes no sense.
Chefren, you said: "I agree, that's what we can point out. If you use VAR in the way you used it for the first goal, then you have to check everything in the second situation." - surely the VAR checked everything in the second goal and found nothing clear. So why please should he intervene?
Thank you very much. Nothing to add. I suppose we have to spend more time explaining the VAR system.
DeleteI don't have much time for this I fear. Recommendation for everyone, including those who run this blog: Read the ifab protocol / guidelines.
Delete
ReplyDeleteVery bad performances from both referees tonight. Near to disastrous. in second round i would go for experienced guys like kuipers, cakir, mazic etc.
This kind of performances like tonight is unacceptable for this level
UNacceptable LMAO. Even the best referees would have problem in games like this. Zwayer did very solid game tonight.
DeleteThis game would have been intense for every referee. What Zwayer must learn is how to use personality and build reputation among top players in the first minutes of a game. The yellow to Diego C. was not needed in the big picture. Use soft skills.
DeleteCome on, Jovan. Without VAR Zwayer would whistle penalty and confirm first (disallowed) goal. It is far from solid I think, two very crucial and very bad decisions that he had to spot on.
Deletei am from germany and watching this guy every week. After his scandal in wc it is wierd that uefa still keep giving him big matches. Tonight is the proof that he is not top level ref.
DeleteYes it would have been a challenging game for every referee, but then the approach and way of refereeing would have been differently. More appropriate to what the game needs. Kuipers, Cakir, Makkelie, Marciniak, Mazic would have been the best choice. We can expect a very hot return in Turin!! I can't wait to see who UEFA will appoint for this match.
DeleteMaverick, you should then watch games like Tottenham-Barcelona (which was excellent). I agree it wasn't the best performance. Maybe the game came too early? (would be Rosetti's fault to some extent).
DeleteI really don't think, these decisions had to be spotted by Zwayer. I think this was VAR stuff, because it was nearly impossible to see it in real time.
DeleteOur top refs like Cakir, Mazic, Kuipers would have handled this way better and made better decisions without the need for repeated VAR reviews. Im sorry but Zwayer needs a few more years to reach the top level.
DeleteI think the return will be Mazic or Kuipers. Nobody else would fit.
DeleteOf course they would, they refereed almost 20 World Cup games and more than 100 CL games taken together.
DeleteI did not see Zwayer that badly. I did not see him well either. The start was not good, ok, and he should spot the foul is outside. As for the rest, I have seen a quite calm referee who handled the OFR very well. Griezmann did not even dare to protest.
How often we have seen Kuipers (Chelsea-PSG), Mazic (Spanish duel some years ago) or even Cakir struggling? It can happen. And today Zwayer was far away from a totally bad evening.
@Bgymn, there was a match between Real and Munich last year, in which a Cakir struggled as well. So it's speculation at all. I think Zwayer did nearly the best a ref could reach in such a game.
DeleteYes Cakir missed a penalty in that game JR but basic disiplinary control was not missing like tonight. Im not talking about specific decisions in this case. Im talking about players repeatedly surrounding and questioning refs little decisions. Players did not have basic respect for Zwayer largely because he did not give out a positive vibe. This pressure I think led him to make a mistake penalty call and a questionable VAR decision.
DeleteI did not see situations from Del Cerro's match, after I see them I can comment. I watched Zwayer, IMO solid performance, VAR did a good job. I guess uefa will publish Rosetti's explanation like last week, it will be interesting to read them. And one more thought by me: VAR has just been introduced into UEFA's matches, you can't expect everything will be perfect in the first two weeks. AARs were introduced to avoid mistakes but even today, after more than 5 years of having AARs, mistakes are happening. All in all, VAR is a great thing, referees need them; at the moment there are obviously things that should be improved, but that will come with a training.
ReplyDeleteThanks Referee 12, true.
ReplyDeleteWhat worries me most (said into the direction of Chefren, I hope for a reply as I appreciate the blog a lot): Half of the comments blame VARs for this and that.
Out of 120 or even more comments 2 or 3 comments question the handball penalty given in Gelsenkirchen. A very clearly undeliberate handball. So maybe the administrators can try to put more focus on the keys of refereeing. If young referees read this here, they might think this was a deliberate handball. VAR will create controversy, we all know that, but we should not forget to busy ourselves with the actual abilities and decisions of a referee.
Maybe I want to make the start. The handball penalty in Gelsenkirchen was a perfect example of "undeliberate" and "not punishable". Can we discuss about that?
Indeed a thing to discuss. In my opinion not a black or white incident concerning the handball. But well, the circumstances were very difficult for the officials.
DeleteDear lucac2218,
DeleteI appreciate your comments as well.
About the goals scored by Atlético, my idea is that the alleged foul on Bonucci is not a clear and obvious mistake in any case, so it shouldn't be rewatched by referee. Otherwise, all the possible fouls missed by referee must be rewatched. I can't believe that, to explain it, when Atlético scored 2-0, Zwayer saw everything about what happened in the box. There was a quite clear foul by attacker, so why in that case no intervention? But I could say it in a different way: I think the intervention in the first disallowed goal was wrong. It was rather a theatrical fall by defender. This is why I don't find consistency. I would have liked no interventions at all in both situations, then the best option. This is also because another referee can have different view on a similar incident and then you wont have consistency.
About the penalty in Gelsenkirchen, the situation is very particular. For sure, arm is not in a 100% natural position (close to body). It is somehow open, so the whistle could be justified. However, about the fact that del Cerro Grande couldn't watch before assigning, I think this was not good.
But another question, so if for you it is 100% not deliberate, we have a UEFA Category 2 referee (VAR Hernández Hernández) who doesn't know that? This would be very strange for me.
At the same time, I want to share my impression about the feeling I had when I watched the incident for the first time: penalty.
Thank you also for your suggestions about the blog. For sure, it is possible to offer a better service to readers.
Sorry, I meant Chiellini, not Bonucci.
DeleteThanks Chefren for taking the time, I am confident you will stress refereeing decisions more than VAR bashing or hyping more in future and offer the Readers an excellent Service.
DeleteI can understand your point of view. Watching what Zwayer saw in the review area, I share the impression that it is a light push. But again, he gained an advantage by this push. Griezmann did not protest. I think one can fully support this call, but I would probably also support it if one considers the fall by defender as a bit too much. Zwayer saw it that way, we must accept it.
Well, your argument beats itself a bit ;) If a UEFA Cat 2 ref is always able to assess handballs 100% correctly, then why doesn't an Elite ref (Zwayer) and Cat 1 ref (Dankert), in your view, interpret the pushing in Madrid correctly? ;)
It's not 100% undeliberate for me, though, rather 80%.
The German approach seems to be different than the Italian approach regarding VAR interventions (at least) regarding this aspect. So it will be quite interesting, what Rosetti will say about it to know how UEFA wants it.
Delete@lucac2218
DeleteAbout the handball, I think there is a very important thing to underline there... Hernández Hernández was behind the monitor, not in the pitch. He should have assessed this handball, as it was asked by UEFA. He attended the course in Portugal, that's why I wrote that.
@Philipp S that's very likely the reason for which I disagree... let's wait for Rosetti explanations.
Let me say, I love del Cerro Grande's body language (sorry, Chefren ;)). He is very firm and elegant at the same time. Surely no "players' friend" type of referee.
ReplyDeleteRegarding key match incidents:
- VAR can't go back to potential foul before the 0:1 goal as after that incident Schalke regained control and lost it again after some deliberate plays; it took too long to confirm the goal
- was it really deliberate handball? rather not for my taste but even saying it was, was it a clear and obvious mistake not whistling it? did del Cerro see the contact with hand? no possibility to make an on-field review was surely a very stressful moment for Spaniard and he should be much praised for his ability to survive the whole process and sell the decision so well! decision is still dubious though
- brilliantly spotted holding, correct penalty and YC
- correct 2nd YC / RC for SPA
I really like del Cerro's attitude and style. Contrary to others on here, I think he passed the test tonight and showed the ability to handle even bigger games in the future. The only point for improvement was lack of yellow cards for clear dissents of Schalke players in the first half and missed YC for reckless use of arm. I can understand he was a bit knocked off the game by VAR moments though.
Very nuanced analysis, Vlad. Thanks for taking the time. I agree. I would like to add: Physical duels in the air were a weakness of his foul line tonight. It started 2 minutes before the 0-1, and before 0-1 again. Comparing his attitude and approach with Gil Manzano, who had Schalke-Porto a while ago, I think UEFA has someone experienced and very routined referee in their pool.
DeleteYour opinion is welcome, no need to say "sorry". Always nice to read your analysis!
DeleteI very much agree regarding with this analysis.
DeleteWhat do you think about a possible offside before the 2nd penalty?
IMO, he deserves a EL QF this season - more would be too much in the first Elite season.
Vlad I can agree with your whole analysis. It's interesting to imagine this game without VAR, as del Cerro took correct original decisions. (Yes to my taste that was not a deliberate handball)
DeleteI think the learning outcome of the day is -> just as the meaning of "deliberate handball" is a grey area, I think the meaning of "clear and obvious mistake" is completely a grey area as well and it's matter of interpretation in some cases.
@ lucac2218 and Chefren - you're welcome, thanks for kind words
Delete@ Philipp S - IMO, even if there is an offside position, the player doesn't fulfill criteria to be deemed as interfering with an opponent before the foul being committed
Gotta say, I thought both teams (incl. VAR) did well tonight. A missed YC here or there, sure, but the final major decisions IMHO were correct and the referees did not have a negative impact on the match.
ReplyDeleteI fully agree. Especially in the extremely difficult Madrid circumstances/athmosfere, I think Zwayer held himself together very well. No crucial mistakes imo, correct decisions taken by the refereeing teams (which include the VAR).
DeleteOne wonders why it's so difficult for a lot of people on this blog to focus on the positive aspects rather than searching elements to blame the ref for.
Prediction for second legs,
ReplyDeleteRM-Ajax Bastian
Dor-Tot Soares Dias
Por-Rom Turpin
Psg-MU Hategan
City-Sch Marciniak
Juv-AM Kuipers
Bar-OL Brych
BM-Liv Mazic
Looks good to me. Turpin had Rome on MD5 and Hategan had Manchester on MD4, but it's really difficult to find a good solution, which avoids all that.
DeleteMarciniak not on a top clash makes it easier to replace him, if he is not recovered until then.
Maybe Collum could get Bastien's match if general performance and experience is considered more important than VAR experience.
HIGHLIGHTS
ReplyDeleteCüneyt Çakır in Lyon v Barcelona
https://ok.ru/video/1249188579948
Gianluca Rocchi in Liverpool v Bayern Munich
https://ok.ru/video/1249683704428
Carlos del Cerro Grande in Schalke v Man. City
https://ok.ru/video/1249793018476
Felix Zwayer in Atlético v Juventus
to follow
Thank you Vlad, excellent.
DeleteHonestly, I want to praise Carlos DCG. The way he managed this nightmare scenario is, in retrospect, exemplary. Calm, composed, respectful, explains everything. He made the most out of the situation.
Thanks. I fully agree regarding del Cerro's management. Outstanding, if you ask me. A pity he didn't book players for dissents though!
DeleteI won't go into what happened in the first half (see above) other than to say a rather average first half by Del Cerro Grande. Which was followed up by what I thought was an excellent second half. Showed some very good fitness with penetrating runs into the penalty area late in the game. Correct second yellow to Otamendi as well. Always stays calm and keeps his composure as well. Things to work on but I would say a good or just under good performance overall.
ReplyDeleteI can't understand one thing, cause of 2 penalty incidents in the Shalke match there was a delay in play in total of about 8 minutes in the first half. You can check it. But they added only 5 minutes...
ReplyDeleteAny clips from Atlético v Juventus as yet, missed the game...
ReplyDeleteAnd...
ReplyDeleteFelix Zwayer in Atlético v Juventus
https://ok.ru/video/1250808367724
Thanks again.
DeleteI must admit I saw that different yesterday. 1' is a penalty for me. Clear studs.
Unfortunately he did not find right means against mobbing. If he cautioned Diego Costa there it would be understandable. Later on it is not.
Apart from it, good performance. The first 4 minutes in your video are showing a not so good start into the game. He should use minute 9 to balance things by YC Juventus. Except one missed studs on CR7, very decent performance in my books. You can see players do not yet accept him as they would make accept a Cakir. But still, immense difficult match, overall quite ok done.
DeleteIf Zwayer didn't already know the game would be difficult, he sure found out in the first minuted when he was mobbed by the players.
DeleteRoberto Rosetti praises Spanish referees after yesterday's Schalke - Manchester City
ReplyDeletehttps://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/about-uefa/news/newsid=2593061.html
Thank you, we can continue in the new discussion.
Deletehttp://law5-theref.blogspot.com/2019/02/var-decisions-at-schalke-v-manchester.html