Referee appointments for Matchday 5 of 2023-24 UEFA Champions League, first set of games to be played on Tuesday 28 November 2023.
18:45 CET - Rome (Stadio Olimpico)
SS Lazio (ITA) - Celtic FC (SCO) | Group E
Referee: Halil Umut Meler TUR
Assistant Referee 1: Mustafa Emre Eyisoy TUR
Assistant Referee 2: Kerem Ersoy TUR
Fourth Official: Arda Kardeşler TUR
Video Assistant Referee: Alper Ulusoy TUR
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Bastian Dankert GER
UEFA Referee Observer: Alexandru Deaconu ROU
UEFA Delegate: Michal Mertinyák SVK
18:45 CET - Hamburg (Volksparkstadion)
FK Shakhtar Donetsk (UKR) - Royal Antwerp FC (BEL) | Group H
Referee: Bartosz Frankowski POL
Assistant Referee 1: Marcin Boniek POL
Assistant Referee 2: Jakub Winkler POL
Fourth Official: Patryk Gryckiewicz POL
Video Assistant Referee: Marco Fritz GER
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Jérôme Brisard FRA
UEFA Referee Observer: Roberto Rosetti ITA
UEFA Delegate: Paolo Rondelli SMR
21:00 CET - Rotterdam (Stadion Feijenoord 'De Kuip')
Feyenoord Rotterdam (NED) - Club Atlético de Madrid (ESP) | Group E
Referee: Anthony Taylor ENG
Assistant Referee 1: Gary Beswick ENG
Assistant Referee 2: Adam Nunn ENG
Fourth Official: Robert Jones ENG
Video Assistant Referee: Stuart Attwell ENG
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Tiago Martins POR
UEFA Referee Observer:
UEFA Delegate: Alexander Miescher SUI
21:00 CET - Paris (Parc des Princes)
Paris Saint-Germain (FRA) - Newcastle United FC (ENG) | Group F
Referee: Szymon Marciniak POL
Assistant Referee 1: Tomasz Listkiewicz POL
Assistant Referee 2: Adam Kupsik POL
Fourth Official: Paweł Raczkowski POL
Video Assistant Referee: Tomasz Kwiatkowski POL
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Ivan Bebek CRO
UEFA Referee Observer: Rune Pedersen NOR
UEFA Delegate: Fernand Meese BEL
21:00 CET - Milan (Stadio Giuseppe Meazza)
AC Milan (ITA) - Borussia Dortmund (GER) | Group F
Referee: István Kovács ROU
Assistant Referee 1: Vasile Florin Marinescu ROU
Assistant Referee 2: Mihai Ovidiu Artene ROU
Fourth Official: Marcel Birsan ROU
Video Assistant Referee: Pol van Boekel NED
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Cătălin Popa ROU
UEFA Referee Observer: Luis Medina Cantalejo ESP
UEFA Delegate: Metin Kazancıoğlu TUR
21:00 CET - Manchester (City of Manchester Stadium)
Manchester City FC (ENG) - RB Leipzig (GER) | Group G
Referee: Glenn Nyberg SWE
Assistant Referee 1: Mahbod Beigi SWE
Assistant Referee 2: Andreas Söderqvist SWE
Fourth Official: Adam Ladebäck SWE
Video Assistant Referee: Alejandro José Hernández Hernández ESP
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Carlos Del Cerro Grande ESP
UEFA Referee Observer: Stefan Meßner AUT
UEFA Delegate: Peter Lundström FIN
21:00 CET - Bern (Stadion Wankdorf)
BSC Young Boys (SUI) - FK Crvena zvezda (SRB) | Group G
Referee: Danny Makkelie NED
Assistant Referee 1: Hessel Steegstra NED
Assistant Referee 2: Jan de Vries NED
Fourth Official: Marc Nagtegaal NED
Video Assistant Referee: Clay Ruperti NED
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Nejc Kajtazović SVN
UEFA Referee Observer: David Fernández Borbalán ESP
UEFA Delegate: Radenko Mijatović SVN
21:00 CET - Barcelona (Estadi Olímpic Lluís Companys)
FC Barcelona (ESP) - FC Porto (POR) | Group H
Referee: Daniele Orsato ITA
Assistant Referee 1: Ciro Carbone ITA
Assistant Referee 2: Alessandro Giallatini ITA
Fourth Official: Michael Fabbri ITA
Video Assistant Referee: Massimiliano Irrati ITA
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Paolo Valeri ITA
UEFA Referee Observer: Sokol Jareci ALB
UEFA Delegate: Tammo Beishuizen NED
Well, first surprise, in my opinion the game in Milan was possible for the Dutch crew of Makkelie but "only" a Dutch VAR was appointed, van Boekel, while Makkelie will be in group G. This game is not about qualification to KO stage and I expected absolutely a different appointment here. I think that having PSG in the group was a problem and committee didn't want to make this choice, but still a better appointment for Makkelie was possible.
ReplyDeleteAbout István Kovács in Milan we can say that the management by committee of this group has been close to the absurd, if you ask me.
Gil Manzano twice, now the Romanian twice (after Newcastle - PSG), it is definitely incredible that, according to committee, there aren't other referees for such games...
Well at least Kovacs doesn't repeat the teams, which was not the case with Gil Manzano and PSG. Somebody predicted that they will swap the appointments from MD2 of Marciniak and Kovacs, it looked very possible to me, let's see.
DeleteYes now it is very likely, to complete the scheme, to read Marciniak name for PSG game...
DeleteFeyenoord Atletico Madrid Umut Meler?
DeleteMindblowing appointment for me, after many debutants in YB games now they will get Makkelie? How should we read this appointment?
ReplyDeleteRosetti with Shahtar.
ReplyDeleteDababovich is option
Frankowski!
DeleteOn a different note. Felix Brych tore his ACL in his 344th Bundesliga match yesterday, equalling the previous record holder Wolfgang Stark. Wishing him a speedy recovery!
ReplyDeleteGroup E: Logical appointment for Taylor (direct duel for promotion, avoiding the Italian and British team), average game for Meler, who currently stagnates in terms of appointments. On the other hand, it's still an important game for an Italian team...
ReplyDeleteGroup F: IMO swapping the referees from MD2 is not problematic at all and was the most sensible choice here - especially with Marciniak leaving for the CWC. MD6 remains interesting here though.
Group G: You can argue, that Makkelie gets the most important of the remaining four games here. However it confirms, that he only gets good, but not very good appointments at the moment. Also NAP-UNI and HUN-MNE were of that category, I think. Nyberg again with two European top teams - all his 6 CL teams this season are top 25 in the UEFA ranking. This time, less important, but a normal appointment overall.
Group H: Frankowski gets the Rosetti observation, so seems to have some chances for promotion. Also in his 4th CL season, the first time, that he gets a second game. Orsato makes sense in a game, where the loser still needs to compete against Donetsk on MD6. Two Italians in a row and third one overall for Porto, but that doesn't matter too much.
Dear colleagues! What do you think about Roberto Rosseti's observation of Bartosz Frankowski?
ReplyDeleteThat’s a good signal.
DeleteI didn't expect the Polish with Rosetti, in my opinion in recent times it didn't look that committee had a focus on him, it seems as suddenly they noticed they should decide something about the Polish. At moment for me a promotion wouldn't be explained, based on recent assignments, but still you can talk about a referee with big experience as Category 1 now. Enough for a game in which a team can qualify? As I said in my analysis with the predictions, the fact that they play against the team at the bottom of the group with 0 points, can explain the choice. Still in my opinion, in the context, it is a very important assignment for the Polish, because rather very unexpected at moment.
ReplyDeleteOrsato with a normal assignment in the same group.
For Nyberg a game that it is not important for qualification, you can see that, despite of the excellent path, so far the Swedish has not been appointed in very "crucial" clashes, but he has rather been assigned to games with sonorous teams (as Philipp explains), for some reasons it looks like they don't want to take a risk at moment with the referee from Sweden, and I would also say, a quite "contrary" management to what we saw with Siebert, regarding the management of an Elite referee, recently promoted. You can't say that Swedish's performances are not good, so clearly now committee has a bit changed the approach, he is not overused and not in dangerous games. For what he did and showed so far, in my opinion he deserves at moment this sensitive treatment by committee.
Taylor in Rotterdam was among the few options for the English, given that he can't handle Italian teams as we know, but let's underline that committee, despite several mistakes ha made in recent times, has still full trust on him, with fully crucial games to follow. Just hope this time it will go better than recent showings.
Last, but not least: the appointment of Meler in Rome is in my opinion a result of his good performances on previous matchdays, he handled two very good matches, and he got this reward, a crucial game for an Italian team. It wouldn't have been on plan before the start of group stage, but rather "gained" by referee with his recent performances. An element that allowed this choice is that Italian team is at home and against, on paper, the weakest side of the group. But still very good for the Turkish and you can clearly point out his development as Elite referee.
How does the committee trust Taylor than Oliver?? Awkward moment! Taylor had more controversial issues this season than Oliver!!
ReplyDeleteAnd I don’t understand the treatment of Oliver by PGMOL 😯 what is happening in UK? Is Oliver not in form?
Taylor had a bad game yesterday even in Nottingham vs Brighton
I respectfully disagree with this. Firstly, in recent weeks Oliver has had regular PL appointments. We often see him on the big games and that hasn't changed - he's had Spurs v Man U, Arsenal v Man City, Spurs v Chelsea. Big, but standard, appointments for him. There's no unusual treatment of him at all.
DeleteOliver has no involvement in the PL at all this weekend (or EFL for that matter, following Taylor's recent appearance there). Admittedly this is rare, but it could be a number of different reasons. It's not unheard of to have a weekend off. It would not surprise me to see him on Wednesday or Thursday night this week.
In terms of UEFA, it seems for me that one month Taylor appears to be the favourite, the next Oliver. Both tend to receive regular appointments, some important ones too. I personally see Oliver as the #1, but that's nothing against Taylor as we've seen he can handle very big games. I don't think he's had the best domestic season until now, however. I wouldn't say there's a clear number one, just 2 very reliable referees.
I write here before. This is not the MAKKELIE from some years ago. Of course everybody can have his opinion about his favorite referee, but for me like Marciniak EURO before, committee make choices about performance, about “new” future refs, your NAME is no guarantee for big games and more important your NAME is no guarantee for EURO2024, You have to fight and show that you are better. And honestly I have to say with pain in my heart BIG ALARM BELLS for Makkelie. It looks that for the committee they don’t care who you are. And That’s what I Like from Rosetti, Kuipers, Velasco and Sayn. I am not sure about his place for EURO24
ReplyDeleteI see it differently. Makkelie consistently gets Champions League matches, where others sometimes get Conference and Europa League matches. He always officiates charged games in the Balkans, which clearly indicates he is a strong referee for UEFA and these countries. Makkelie has had a good season so far from what I’ve seen, with an exceptional performance in Hungary. And we often see a route to the UCL final with less significant matches. Look at the season when Turpin officiated the UCL final. UEFA does this well-considered is my feeling.
DeleteCL final? Low Elite refs get better games then Makkelie. He have to fight for Euro24, to be selected and I don’t think 0,1% about a CL final. For me Vincic candidate CL final
DeleteWhy is there always bias against Danny Makkelie? Sometimes I wonder what he would think if he read the blog himself.
DeleteSome notes about VAR assignments: Hernandez Hernandez with Nyberg. Curious to see whether Martinez Munuera will be appointed again after Ukraine - Italy, but yes, regardless of the real assessment by committee, for opportunity purposes they could easily rather avoid the choice. Kovacs, who works with either Italian or German VARs, this time in a game with two teams from the mentioned countries, will be with a Dutch (rare for him). Good to see Turkish VAR for Meler, we know that for a certain times they were not appointed in Champions League. Interesting to point out that Bebek will work as AVAR exactly in Marciniak game (preparation for FIFA CWC?).
ReplyDeleteAbout Polish VARs, it seems as only Kwiatkowski is trusted in CL, but a couple (if not more) of VMO from Poland get good games in the rest of UEFA competitions (Piotr Lasyk as first example) and seem to be ahead of VAR from other countries.
Kajtazović , Bebek and Martins as AVAR should suggest us possible assignments for Vincic, Peljto and Dias maybe tomorrow. Not sure like the others about the Bosnian but this was the last pairing of Bebek.
Hernandez' management is quite strange. Due to his CWC nomination he surely will stay with only one CL game again this season, making it three games in three seasons so far. That's not Elite level...
DeleteBravo Umut Meler
ReplyDeleteEven though Bartosz Frankowski officiates one Champions League match every year, we all know that he is not Champions League level. In last week's Germany-Turkey match he proved again that he is an incompetent referee.
ReplyDeleteYes, contrary to Vincic who was really good and had flawless Austria-Germany match.
DeleteBartosz Frankowski's biggest disadvantage is that he lacks a strong will in matches. He officiates matches uneasily. Vincic is not my favorite referee but he is far ahead of Frankowski in terms of quality.
Deleteso why observe Rosseti?
ReplyDeleteArsenal x Lens
ReplyDeleteArtur Dias
Argentina x Alemanha
ReplyDeleteMundial 17
João Pinheiro
BTW, the 6 games at 21:00 could set a new record for combined experience at one kick-off time with 191 CL games and 5 European finals - only Turpin missing from the top 5 active referees with most CL games.
ReplyDeleteHow certain is it that Clement Turpin (FRA) is appointed in Istanbul for Galatasaray Vs Man Utd?, As he is missing from the Tuesday night matches it looks certain in my opinion, Or could they appoint a shock referee, Ovidiu Hategan (ROU), Alejandro Hernandez (SPA) or Slavko Vincic (SLV) Will be VERY Interesting to see the appointment.
ReplyDeleteNot certain. Turpin, Vincic and Gil Manzano all look like realistic options. Hernandez is VAR on Tuesday and Hategan would not restart with such a big game, if he gets CL at all.
DeleteBy the way, Schärer was only appointed as VAR domestically last weekend. So, I strongly expect him in this week‘s UEFA (probably in Europa League?)
ReplyDeleteIn previous UCL round, Meler was observed by committee member. Was that to secure his EURO spot or to see if he is ‘ready’ to officiate an Italian team? ;)
ReplyDeleteTo me at moment, still the second option, more generally I think to check the development of the referee, I can't be sure about him at EURO to be honest, looks too early, despite of very good performances in recent times. But I can be wrong, of course!
DeleteI also think that Meler has few chance to reach Euro 2024, compared with other elite teammate.
DeleteRight now I see the following pool sure for a spot in Germany:
Soares Dias
Gil Manzano
Letexier
Turpin
Taylor
Oliver
Nyberg
Makkelie
Orsato
Massa
Zwayer
Marciniak
Kruzliak
Kovacs
Vincic
Supposing 18 referees and one slot booked for COMNEBOL guest (Tello or Sampaio ?) the remaining 2 slots will be extracted among:
Sanchez Martinez
Peljto
Stieler or Siebert
One woman referee
Jovanovic
In Rosetti's shoes I would select Peljto and Siebert, but this is just my poor idea.
I guess that Hernandez Hernandez, Bastien and Hategan are more than suitable as VAR, while Stieler, as home referee, is suitable as fourth official with Eksas, Obrenovic, Lindhout, Visser or Lambrecht and Rumsas.
Just a short statistical update after CL MD5: considering GS and play off this is the ranking of appointments:
4 matches (3+1): Sanchez Martinez, Letexier, Turpin, Taylor, Orsato, masssa, Peljto Marciniak, Kovacs
3 matches (All GS): Soares Dias, Kruzliak, Meler, Nyberg, Makkelie
3 matches (2+1): Vincic, Gil manzano, Zwayer
2 matches (All GS): Oliver, petrescu, Frankowski, Guida, Guzubuyuk, Stieler and Rumsas.
0 matches: Hategan and Sharer (injuries), Koulbakov, Karasev (ban), Sidiropolous, (????????????????????? :-))
@Chefren, if Meler performs very well again, would he get a game in MD 6? And how do you see Meler's chance for Euro 2024?
DeleteLet's not forget that UEFA would also send a referee to Copa America. It's only been Italians, Spaniards and Portuguese referees going to South America so far, so that would probably mean either Sanchez Martinez, Massa or Soares Dias. Should be noted though that the competition is taking place in the US with more North American teams than usual, so that could mean someone from Northern Europe could be sent as well.
DeleteA game on MD6 is possible for Meler if he performs well today.
DeleteAbout EURO selection, my opinion is still the same: I have the feeling that at moment he wouldn't be called for the tournament, because there are other referees ahead (reading also the list posted by F.) and then his treatment before this CL group stage didn't give signals to me that committee was already starting a certain path with the Turkish. What he showed of very positive performances, in my opinion in this regard should have happened before, but that's only my idea.
I am always a side here as Turkish, but I don't believe Meler is treated the same way some referees are treated. What makes you all thinking Letexier ahead of Meler. Both became FIFA referees 2017, both became elite 2022. But because he is French he had more appointments than Meler. Or newly promoted elite referee Nyberg is ahead of Meler. Is Massa better referee than Meler? In my opinion performance of elite referees should be more important than their nationalities. If Meler is performing well he should be at Euro 2024, if not he shouldn't be...
DeleteIt is true that the Turkish has been treatd in a slightly (or evident?) different way than other Elite referees in recent times. Less appointments, mostly not challenging games (at least until a few ago, remember Bosnia - Portugal among others, if compared to other assignments at that time) but one can think about the reasons, in my opinion, for which this had happened. Surely an argument can be the fact that when he was promoted to Elite, December 2021, it was totally unexpected. You can read here some comments:
Deletehttps://law5-theref.blogspot.com/2021/12/uefa-referees-categories-for-second.html
So in my opinion committee decided on the subsequent times, to give time for a better development to Turkish referee, on paper Elite, but maybe still treated as Category 1 in reality.
Now the process is reaching the key moment and we will see, but surely the management has been particular, that's why I have doubts about his EURO selection. When promoted to Elite, at that time, to say it in other words, it looked like rather committee was forced for some reasons to do that... but that's only speculation of course, and we are not talking exclusively about referee's abilities.
umut meler terrible yellow card decision there never a foul never mind a card
ReplyDelete(35’) YC Reckless Foul.
DeleteAgreed that the correct decision probably should have been no foul.
Frankowski so far:
ReplyDelete06' - good strong warning SHK after DtR
11' - good FK for handball, 1:0, long VAR check for possible offside and handball, also it seems Frankowski wanted to award a penalty for holding but nice wait-and-see
18' - warning to 18ANT for off-the-ball challenge
21' - PAI holding, no foul there, Antwerp player wanted to win a penalty
30' - YC 44ANT for reckless use of arm while shielding the ball, maybe not 100% needed but also not wrong; arrogant attitude
31' - chance to balance cards after late challenge by 6SHK, only warning, ANT upset with refereeing, again quite arrogant attitude
45' - YC 7ANT for reckless use of arm; correct, clear movement towards an opponent's head; Antwerp feel hard done again
Interesting dealing with a substitution in 85', it was clearly audible what the Polish referee said to team officials... very rare, if you ask me.
DeleteSecond half with several PAIs (all correctly rejected, the biggest one is holding in 54' but due to no impact on action and exaggerated reaction play-on was optimal decision) and many tensions between players dealt with (very) strong reactions.
DeleteFrankowski's started to change his attitude for some time and instead of soft referee with weak management skills we got a very strong, even arrogant official today. Still not optimal - instead of calming things/players down, it only adds fuel to the fire in hot games - but it's always difficult to manage Belgian/Dutch cocky players. However, it's very good that he worked on his approach / body language and has made a big progress in this aspect.
I think with such high level of technical accuracy in his performances he is able to reach the Elite Category.
Now penalty for Celtic in minute 93 for a push in the back by the Lazio defender, spontaneous reaction is that it's a soft penalty and potentially incorrect.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting, VAR calls out Meler who overturns his on field decision. For me it was a wrong call to whistle a penalty there, don't think anyone really expected it either, but was it correct for him to be called out by the VAR?
DeleteSurprised to see that he overturned it cause there was minimal contact.
DeleteObviously not enough for VAR to support it.
I thought it was soft and probably an incorrect penalty, however I'm not convinced any angle was clear enough for an OFR, there was a slight push. Surprised the VAR got involved
DeleteI also agree with you: Quite soft penalty, but not a clear mistake - and some of the replays in the OFR didn't really seem helpful.
DeleteYou really need to have a "smoking-gun-angle" to make such an intervention, and unfortunately that was missing imo. Rather not a penalty, but nothing clear...
DeleteYeah, never an intervention...
DeleteVery quick confirmation by VAR following a penalty call by Kovacs, handball. To be honest based on the replay shown, it looked like ball had hit another part of the body. But Van Boekel surely checked everything...
ReplyDeleteLooked a clear penalty initially. Arm is tucked in though where the ball hits. Harsh penalty.
DeleteI'm sorry Chefren, but you must have seen something completely different to what we others saw, it clearly touched the arm
DeleteAnd now no doubts, a very clear penalty to Borussia, whistled by Kovacs. Challenging game for the Romanian.
ReplyDeleteNow it will get even more,we all know Italian teams when they're losing.
DeleteClear penalty indeed.
Deletehttps://dubz.co/v/sr4hzz
DeleteEven if going frame by frame one could argue that attacker rather uses the opportunity to get the call, this can't be questioned, because very late intervention by defender, no ball, and tripping.
Al-Khelaïfi and UEFA president Čeferin watching together PSG - Newcastle at stadium. So after the crucial game involving his national team, the Slovenian head of UEFA meets again the Polish referee.
ReplyDeleteČeferin.. What signal does he give to referees by watching a game together with the PSG president?
Delete@chefren what did you think of Meler's performance?
ReplyDeleteHere the OFR in Lazio - Celtic.
ReplyDeletehttps://streamff.co/v/L4qr61BM4w
Nobody expected penalty here, clearly a wrong call by Turkish referee, in such situations I always like to point out that it is very often a question of timing. If you wait a bit more before whistling, in my opinion, you understand that penalty is not expected and maybe even wrong. Too soft the push.
Now, strictly according to protocol, rather a mistake to intervene, but in reality what committee wants is to fight against such situations and the intervention of VAR in this case should be assessed as correct, in my opinion.
Apart from this incident, I think regular game, nothing to report if this one at the end hadn't happened. So better for Meler to end the game without this scene, but surely this becomes, due to that, not the best among the three performances in group stage.
If he had to gain credit in a potentially hot game involving an Italian team, I think that this didn't happen due to last incident, but still, personal opinion. If committee rather looks at the overall picture of a referee, or focuses on this incident...
I watched the game and thought Meler did decent/good, nothing really happened and although some yellows were soft/wrong (for me the 1st one slightly soft and 2nd one probably wrong), no one really cares about it after the game. Like Chefren says, it’s a very normal game where nothing really happened except for this weird penalty call in the end.
DeleteBlatant dissent towards AR1 in Paris in 20'. Marciniak did nothing. Really disappointing, I expected a WC final referee to be an example for everyone to punish this behavior and follow the pre-season instructions. Apparently nothing will change regarding dissent.
ReplyDeleteWhere was the dissent?
Delete19:35 and Marciniak at least talked to him, which was appropriate IMO.
DeleteSorry, but I have to disagree. Gil Manzano was killed on this blog for not giving second YC last MD. And this was much worse. But OK, I'm already used to double standards regarding some referees.
DeleteGood no second yellow card for Dias in Manchester- wasn't SPA as the Man City player was getting to the ball first
ReplyDeleteProbably there wasn't even contact, so one can discuss whether it even was a foul (or rather a dive).
DeleteI can agree with Philipp and see not contact (replay) . In my opinion, yellow-red would have been for Dias.
DeleteI didn't watch the incident but I hear and I got reports about a very clear yellow card for SPA missed by the Swedish referee. Would be interesting to see.
Delete+1
DeleteIts a dive for a start
DeleteMakkelie with several missed fouls for YCs! He totally missed fouls and they were for YC! Very bad officiating because he didn't have many things to see and missed all of them! In two cases players had to be exchanged.
ReplyDeleteBad? Really?
DeleteIt's below expexted in a terms of foul detection, mark 8.3... but nothing more than that.
2 or 3 blatant missed YC's,watching how he adapted to Hungary-Montenegro game and tonight was unbeliavable.
DeleteIt was like watching Sanchez Martinez in revesre with his Rangers and Albania performance.
Simply an accurate and expected level performance in a not too complicated game. During the game no complaints by players whatsoever (including the Serbian players), completely accepted and in full control. Funny how some people still try to make it look like Makkelie made a mess, laughable even…
DeleteMakkelie sensed the game perfectly and had good contact with the players. He led the game flow and had full control and acceptance. He might have given 1 YC but handled it with personality. It was a pleasure to watch him in this crucial match without any issues or discussion.
DeleteCorrect YC despite what commentators say for Dembele in Paris. Clearly booted the ball into the ground in anger. Commentators somehow missed that and thought it was for a foul. Another correct yellow for PSG for SPA
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely correct, he blatantly kicked the ball away out of clear frustration, it was definitely too much to be ignored. I also feel it was necessary to clam the players down a bit, as the game started to heat up a bit.
DeleteBoth correct and easy yellows.
DeleteWow- Great decision from Marciniak and Kwiatkowski. Not entirely sure on VAR protocol but he stopped play during open play then restarted with a drop ball. Ball was in the middle of the pitch but should he not play on?
ReplyDeleteVery weird situation, for me actually a great non-penalty call BUT also looked odd for me when he stopped in the middle of play… not entirely sure this is the correct procedure?
DeleteQuite unusual indeed to stop the game for the VAR check.
DeleteBut also not the worst thing to do, if the referee thinks, it helps with the management (and of course, if it doesn't stop an attack).
And yes, that was no penalty.
Two correct no penalties but what about the a) mobbing and b) restart after Donnarumma’s caution?!
DeleteWhat was the restart after the caution? I didn’t even see it :p
DeleteI agree with Philipp regarding this check procedure, seemed like a smart thing to do in that specific moment. And yes, excellent decision regarding possible penalty.
DeleteNobody else would have done that, watching Marciniak you can understand which level he reached about the confidence and the freedom of doing the best thing for keeping the game under control. Strictly according to protocol, this shouldn't have happened, because we know the VAR principle: "Minimum interference, maximum benefit". About the committee's opinion, I just think that they will not say anything to the Polish crew...
DeleteGood Job Marciniak is in charge in Paris, turning into a really difficult game. Never a handball, good decision from the Polish Team yet again. Booking for dissent follows from PSG.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, more non penalty (close distance, ball seeking arm and high speed), argument could be made for unnatural position but for me this would be the optimal call as a football spectator & player, in these types of situations you don’t get punished for no reason.
DeleteFully agree, MX, for the exact same reasons you mentioned.
DeleteMarcinack is having the game of his Career, showing why he is the best, control, management style, positioning brilliant
ReplyDeleteMarciniak obviously stopped the game according to the ‘self-preservation’ principle, trying to avoid an incident at the other end (à la Brych in Portugal vs. Switzerland if one can remember that far back). Clever, but is that really fair to Newcastle? The correct restart in the second incident is an indirect freekick from the position of GD’s dissenting behaviour, but again the Pole invented the ‘dropped ball/stop play clause’. And he completely ignored what was on paper very (very) blatant mobbing against him, content only to present a firm image as if to say “I don’t care if you try to undermine me, you can’t influence me”.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet one can’t deny that one had the impression of an excellent referee all the while. To echo Lukas’ comment, and what is visible in refereeing for the last forty years at the highest level (Agnolin, Collina, Webb) - the best referees are apparently the ones who bend the rules the most. And we can discuss to what extent and reasons that is a good or bad thing.
Marciniak has improved massively since COVID. 18/19 and 19/20 he was awful
DeleteSee how much difficult is to referee PSG, now Marciniak definitely forced to book a player for mobbing...
ReplyDeleteNow Marciniak called for review by Tomasz Kwiatkowski. Thats never a penalty
ReplyDeleteWow, never a penalty. Shocking!
ReplyDelete+1!
DeleteAgree, not a penalty for me either.
DeleteMarciniak only gives that because its in favour of PSG and he knows the UEFA president is watching with his mate the PSG president
ReplyDeleteWrong VAR intervention by Kwiatkowski
ReplyDeleteVAR is finished. Thats it. It cannot come back from this. What an absolute shambles
ReplyDeleteShocking, simply a scandal penalty in Paris
ReplyDeleteOne of those. In England, never a penalty in a million years, the deflection off the body is still relevent. In Uefa? Probably the correct decision, arm away from body/unnatural. British commentators very angry, but just another example of cross-competition confusion
ReplyDeleteAnd here the incident that shouldn't have definitely happened... to me, it was never clear if a punishable handball but with a previous touch on another part of the body is enough for clear and obvious mistake. Some referees call it, others do the contrary. I think here some VARs would have had a different idea, Marciniak was called and he assigned penalty to French team.
ReplyDeleteIf direct touch with arm, clear penalty, but in this case not clear how much worthy of an OFR.
If it isn't even a clear penalty in Italy...
DeleteIMO even without the touch of the body, there is a good argument, that the arm is in a natural position, just swinging while running.
Is it difficult to say when Marciniak is wrong? It was a clear deflection. Please update yourself with the instructions. Very clear and wrong decision by both, VAR and specially the referee who gave the penalty after seeing the situation on the screen.
DeleteLukas, we saw too many "mistakes" to say that these are mistakes, simply there aren't updated instructions, otherwise almost all Elite referee are incompetent and I can't believe that. Simply, there isn't any clear line and all feel allowed to call everything.
Delete@Philipp without previous touch on body, for Italian standard very clear penalty and also OFR if missed.
Based on my info, referees got very clear instructions regarding handball before the season. So your information is not true. You say without touch clear penalty. But it was a deflection so that changes everything. Clearly no penalty.
DeleteSo Kovacs knows how to referee and without using his cards. Only 2 YC which went almost unnoticed, one of them at the very end of the game. Both penalties correct imo.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry but there is no way this the correct decision, even for UEFA
ReplyDeleteWell Marciniak turned a very very high mark and de facto outstanding performance into a disaster at the very end. But why did the best referee in the world make such a mistake at the OFR?! I’ll try to explain it from my perspective shortly. But, NO, it is nothing to do with Al-Khelaifi and Čeferin, spare me the bullshit…
ReplyDeleteIsn't he great friends with Tomasz Kwiatkowski. Perhaps he doesn't want to go against him. Kwiatkowski has to be replaced tomorrow.
DeleteAs long as handball will be so grey area, everything will be possible. We saw all VARs and referees calling every kind od handballs both from the pitch and the VAR room. UEFA guidelines? Not clear at all, or maybe not even given at all, I smiled when at the start of group stage somebody wrote that handball instructions had changed, so what are we watching now? Then in this context it is clear that you have borderline situation, potentially crucial, you go for the less controversial decision and well... impossible to act in a dfferent way.
DeleteCommittee must be blamed for having missed to give very clear instructions about that. But I can't believe they did that on purpose.
First handball shout is far more of a penalty than the given one. I am amazed
DeleteI know Uefa don't love added time and following IFAB instructions, but VAR delay, penalty, and dtr at the goal kick must have meant more added time than given
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteOkay I am done. Dont tell me that any other team in a hundred years would have gotten that joke of a penalty.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTaylor has a game tomorrow, Oliver is in the EL.
DeleteI'm not a conspiracy theorist or whatsoever, but this doesn't feel good at all.
ReplyDeleteFirst, Gil Manzano's wrong handball in favor of PSG, now Marciniak under pressure in front of the screen. Do referees no longer dare to make decisions against PSG...?
My "feeling" is that UEFA does not protect its referees sufficiently after a PSG match. Cause > effect.
And yes, it doesn’t help at all when the UEFA boss is watching next to a certain president.
Exactly right. Referees will give PSG and Italy decisions after the pathetic response from UEFA after the Makkelie and Taylor treatment. Whats worse is the UEFA president is happy to watch with a guy who attacked one of his referees
DeleteAny surprises? No.
ReplyDeleteUefa strikes again. Just like Uefa would rather tha almighty Italy qualify for Euros than small Ukraine, so will they still prefer almighty PSG qualify to small Newcastle.
Scandalous penalty decision by Marciniak. Never, never, never a penalty. German commentators were raging, asking whether handball rule has been set out of force in the penalty area.
ReplyDeleteSorry to say, but this was an unacceptable decision by Kwiatkowski an Marciniak. I still cannot believe what I saw…
And yes, IMO this was so wrong that Marciniak should not get any further matches in this season. Sorry, but I have to be very clear here.
DeleteKwiatkowski cannot be on VAR tomorrow. Marciniak should be pulled from CWC duty. What did Jovanovic do so badly in Italy vs England to get the treatment he has got.
DeleteI want to join this discussion without sounding too much like a Marciniak fanboy, I enjoy his refereeing but don't care too much of him personally more than his career.
ReplyDeleteNow for the decision that everyone is talking about, I am very unsure what the UEFA guidelines are, IFAB are very clear on the situation of punishing handball offences, unnatural position = penalty and natural position = no penalty. The "from their own body" etc is no longer a part of the laws of the game but rather remains a hidden "guideline" but is only enforced when expected, questionmark? Therefore my question is kind of what is the expected decision here, given that Marciniak thinks it as an unnatural position (which I personally without seeing the replay, agree with since the arm is out from his body). Therefore since the ball deflects from the defenders chest and the action of the arm is not a result of him naturally changing his body from the action (doesn't matter since it's a deflection and not a deliberate play), if the hand/arm is in an unnatural position from the beginning, it's punishable? (basically, if the ball would have hit the arm directly and you think it as a penalty, this type of deflection according to the laws of the game, should make no difference).
This is how I interpret it and the answers I've gotten from IFAB, maybe it's not in line with UEFA/other guidelines but am I completely out of sync for thinking this is the "correct" decision according to law?
I am eagerly waiting for someone to respond, everyone is saying it's a scandalous decision and completely wrong but I want to understand why it's so wrong, is it wrong according to guidelines (if so, what guidelines?), is it wrong according to law (if so, what law?), is it wrong according to other referees giving these situations as no handball offence (if so, I understand the confusion but that doesn't automatically make it "wrong"). I am simply asking for some clarification here and I'm not saying I am right in this situation, I'm open to changing my mind here.
DeleteI think a lot of people wrote just in affect, and maybe I did as well to some degree. It's impossible to know what is going on inside UEFA and Rosetti's minds, so I can only speak about what we have seen so far, and IMO that makes me think that this is a wrong decision even for UEFA. I think there was a similar situation or at least not too dissimilar in PSG's first game that wasn't given as penalty for example and also we have to consider the earlier shout for a penalty in this game as well, which was also not given of course. That should mean there is at least some consideration taken into account regarding previous touches, distance and so on and I think this would be one of the clearest cases where it should not be a penalty, but of course I could be wrong and this was completely the expected decision in UEFA's minds
DeleteI appreciate the nice conversation here @Elliot, what I believe makes people most frustrated is probably the confusion regarding handball offences, it can be punishable one week and not punishable the other. To be honest, I believe most of us judge the UEFA "guidelines" from what other referees whistle for, combined with their nations local guidelines, but that obviously doesn't make a decision correct or incorrect. As I previously mentioned, the fact that other referees choose to make different judgements doesn't automatically make this call wrong, but perhaps even this is correct compared to other referees, who knows? We can only take a stance from a factual standpoint which is either the law (where this is a penalty) or UEFA guidelines (that no one seems to have).
DeleteFrom the LotG perspective:
DeleteIf the arm position is justifiable by the player's body movement for that specific situation, it doesn't make the body unnaturally bigger and therefore this can't be a reason for a penalty. This is quite clear.
And "justifiable" means: It CAN be defended as being warranted. So the IFAB wording actually provides a high threshold here, because the arm position must not be defensible for it to be punishable.
So in tonight's situation, most people seem to think, that the arm position can be defended as a consequence of the player running resp. stopping.
Video:
ReplyDeletehttps://dubz.co/v/zry8t8
Which conclusion should we draw?
A) Fully correct decision
B) Wrong decision, not a punishable handball.
C) Supportable decision
D) Not clear what at moment a punishable handball is
D- especially after the one not given
DeleteThank you for the clip, for me the argument has to be made whether it can be considered a natural position if the ball hit the arm directly, if that's the case then the penalty should of course not stand (because it's a natural position). If you think it's a penalty if the ball hits the arm directly, then I see it as a penalty for unnatural position, not sure what the correct assessment here is, mainly since I'm not 100% sure what UEFA classifies as unnatural/natural... :p
DeleteMaybe time for a poll? ;)
DeleteIf this is a punishable handball, let‘s stop playing football. Completely wrong call, not even UEFA can think that this was punishable…
DeleteFor me is not a punishable handball. How can the VAR intervene? Everyone must know !
DeleteAs a spectator, this type of handball "offence" is probably mostly regarded as non punishable since football fans now are used to deflection = no handball pretty much ever, regardless if that's the case according to law, the referees probably have clear guidelines and examples of what can be classified as punishable/not punishable, the confusing part is that another referee most likely would have not given this as a handball and that is where the frustration stems from, the confusion of what can be classified as correct and not.
DeleteD, nowadays I have no idea what a punishable handball is. It's a shame.
DeleteProbably not so bad to not have anonymus comments available today. :-)
DeleteThe interesting thing that still so many emotional comments. I don't see this as that terrible decision, but agree with all who says the handball rule is simple still not clear. Therefore even more difficult to assess clear and obvious errors. And also the question is coming regarding where VAR is coming into picture. From the moment Marciniak was invited to the screen it was impossible not to award a penalty for him.
But also to highlight the pressure on referees in PSG games is enormous. If we play around with scenarios:
1. No call, no VAR - Marciniak is one more referee who will never ever referee for PSG and maybe we can forget him for KO stage.
2. VAR intervention, Marciniak denies - Same scenario, just even bigger scandal as the interpreation would be that other referees think it's a penalty, and Marciniak is "against" PSG.
3. VAR intervention and penalty given - I see that as the least problematic and this is what exactly happened. Probably missed penatly would be the best, but hope and pray doesn't help here.
I am saying this not to defend any decisions, just wondering now. And as the handball rule is so confusing still, I must say it's not totally wrong decision to my taste and also the least issue for Marciniak and his future reputation. (Also imagine someone else in this game, (Orsato, Turipn, Taylor, Makkelie not possible) I guess this could easily kill his career...)
Kills the career because UEFA let it. If the committee was competent and didn't crumble under club power then it wouldn't kill anyone's career
DeleteYes, the pressure on Marciniak (and Kwiatkowski) was huge there, especially after the previous penalty area incidents without intervention.
DeleteBut if their status is not enough to withstand that pressure, probably nobody can do it.
They surely would have deserved praise if they had not given the penalty.
Agreeing with @Theref here, a very interesting aspect amongst all this is VAR but my argument still stands here. If the polish team assesses this as unnatural position, the call from VAR is correct and mandatory. Once Marciniak is called, I also agree with you that he's kind of locked into making the penalty call, some referees also talk with their VAR during their pregame and tell them that calling them out means that they will change their decision.
DeleteNow we can argue if this is unnatural/natural, but that's kind of where the problem is, I want to understand where you base this from, is it from guidelines? from law? or from other referees assessing this differently?
@MX I think that's where transparency would help. Means UEFA would let us now if this is correct/not correct decision and explain publicly the arguements for either way. I know it will not happen, but even for refereeing experts (such as people who have understanding of LOTG here) are not sure, then what do we expect from general audience. They are even more confused probably.
DeleteAgreed @Theref, would be helpful if the public would get to know what the UEFA guidelines are regarding SFP, handball offences etc. I know this is the case for a lot of local clubs, the federation holds annual meetings of what they can expect regarding SFP and handball offences for the season, but having this available for the public would help for sure, especially since a lot of referees seem to interpret these "guidelines" in different ways... :p
DeleteEarly prediction
ReplyDeleteDortmund - PSG: Vinčić (who is a friend of Čeferin btw).
Old cynic!
Delete;-)
B.
ReplyDeleteWhat else?
Well, D must be an option, if one of the best referees thinks, this is a penalty...
DeleteHmmm ... well, maybe he is NOT one of the best referees.
DeleteIn this forum Marciniak's canonization is proclaimed too early and too often imho.
oh come on @HaGo, surely Marciniak is regarded as one of the current best referees...
DeleteBTW officiating PSG games is becoming a too big affair for UEFA day after day.
ReplyDeleteNow Borussia Dortmund - PSG is waiting on MD6.
On paper, with German team already at KO stage, I think maybe less pressure on referee because "only" French side with the need to qualify. But still, you know, something that can go out of control.
UEFA has ended the referees, they can't appoint very big names.
Still, German, Italian, English and French are out.
Taking a look at Elite referees panel, this game could go again to Vincic, with the other candidate represented by Soareas Dias. But Vincic comes from PSG - Milan and Soares Dias has a game tomorrow... definitely this is the most embarrassing situation for committee, then to follow the handball management...
Wouldn't be surprised if they gave it to Turpin
DeleteThey will give it to Vincic, 100%
DeleteI don't see other option than Vincic, it is almost 100%
DeleteMaybe Zwayer is a good option for Newcastle-Milan though. He has no history with these teams and obviously is OK for Italian teams in general.
DeleteI still have some hope, that they use someone for BVB-PSG, who didn't referee them before. Maybe Sanchez, if he is really good tomorrow?
Otherwise Gözübüyük and Kruzliak could be next on the candidates list. Or maybe Collum? A lot of experience and recently trusted with an important qualifier.
Might be crazy idea, but I would give to someone who is not in the frame for EURO, kinda close to end his career anyway and would not harm that much if something happens. Mark my words, Collum or Sidiropoulos will be there. (kidding of course :-)
DeleteI think at the same time UEFA should start thinking what's going so wrong with referee development from smaller countries. Few years ago how many options they had with Cakir, Mazic, Kassai, Hategan, Skomina not to mention the jollyjoker Kuipers.
Uefa guideline pre season were clear. Deflection from body to hand/arm mean no handball. And clips as examples are same as PSG incident. Unsupportable decision.
DeleteIf this is the case @AAR1, then obviously this is a wrong call by Marciniak. But this is very interesting because that's obviously not what the law says (doesn't matter if UEFA says otherwise, of course), but just interesting to note that. Do you happen to have the clips that UEFA use for their showcase regarding non punishable handballs (and deflections)?
DeleteCome on, you can't blame Rosetti for everything: remember Çakir and Skomina had to repeat semifinals in 2016 (and BOTH made crucial mistakes in the CL second legs). In 2018, we were also talking about a 'big disaster' KO stage. In 2013, sth similar. And the more 'out of focus' 2000s era where UEFA put too much faith relatively in a number of relatively mediocre referees.
DeleteI'm not a Rosetti fan (see appmnts for tmr's games for one...) by any means, but you have to be realistic about what the past was too.
I didn't mean to blame Rosetti at all, but I just think they had way more options a few years ago. I think the 2016 situation was simply mismanagement of the available pool of referees.
DeleteBut seriously if you forget the so-called big football nations, then we have Slovenia overepresented, Romania overrepresented and Poland as well. Even I think some other people mentioned that looking at the EL or ECL appointments. And not to mention how many German, Spanish, Italian, French teams are in action usually.
So I think definitely there is work to do here, and that was not something I wanted to highlight is strong critics against Rosetti.
I get you. Sorry, Theref, if my comment came across as personal against you; didn't mean it like that and I was only trying to make a general point! :)
DeleteNo problem, didn't take it personal. :-)
DeleteI think we will be all happy when this group stage will be over and such group will not often come together in the future excluding so many great referees instantly. (or if it happens at least hoping for PSG not be there and then we have immediately 3 extra people with Turpin, Letexier and Makkelie. :D )
There won't be any groups next season...
DeleteRosetti needs to come out and clearly state how it is, there is too much uncertainty and I even feel some people can't really blame Marciniak and Kwiatkowski because of this, maybe the blame lies on UEFA and they just did what they were expected to do. Unfortunately he would never do that, and I don't think that is because of some kind of respect towards his own referees
ReplyDeleteTo answer Chefren's question - B. The deflection has taken all the pace off the ball and the touch on the arm is basically 'irrelevant' + generally natural position. Watching on the television, I and the other person watching the game with immediately shouted "penalty!". And this is obviously the 'primacy effect' suffered by the WC Final VAR too, letting his strong initial impression override very clear contrary evidence which presented itself. It was only after the second replay shown by Kwiatkowski that the chest touch was even discernible, right?
ReplyDeleteBut why did MARCINIAK, with the benefit of replays, get mistaken? Well, with the style he chose the officiate the game, he had expended too much 'cognitive energy' and wasn't able to think clearly at the very end. Okay, mental fatigue is NORMAL at the end of SUCH a challenging game (I smiled at reading 8,3... we were talking about en praxis 8,6/7(+) for sure!) - but actually something much more interesting happened here.
Marciniak offered a different style from the WC final, and indeed Euro Soccer Ref wrote about this really well in recent times. In the WC final, the Pole refereed exclusively according to the 'refereeing textbook': operating on a clear and well-defined threshold for YCs, and reacting 'commensurately' to incidents in order to always assert his authority on the game. I hope that isn't too much of a word salad but I'll use a practical example from tonight.
Not awarding Hakimi a spot-kick was a very good decision; ironically the scene was very similar to that which fooled Attwell (and Salisbury) yesterday - a player cleverly pushing the ball forward to anticipate that the defender couldn't change his running and a 'crash' (to borrow directly from German) would occur. But this was an extremely 'dramatic' decision at the moment of the game, so the refereeing textbook dictates that you need to use extremely clear gestures with a big focus on body language in order to show players that you are the boss.
Instead, Marciniak chose to 'stay in the background', choosing to present only a stern face, and not take any formal sanction against the blatant mobbing of him that occurred. Fine, no problem; my feeling was that until +96' this tactic helped him realise a very very good performance.
What people might not realise - this way of refereeing is very stressful! When you haven't asserted your authority, 'control of the players actions' loosen, and it makes everything a big panic, where your focus is on keeping control as the clock ticks down and angst increases, as opposed to simply 'making the best decisions' in each situation. Marciniak cautioned G. Ramos, but in the third mobbing incident, one can't really say that he won that scene overall.
In the end, it was the cumulative stress on Szymon Marciniak -- partly but not wholly down to the style with which he chose to officiate the game -- which ultimately sunk him. What you realise having watched soooo many games over sooo many years and eras: in the end, unless you apply the 'pure' law-enforcer/refereeing textbook style, there will ALWAYS be a game which is too difficult for you, however advanced level of difficulty is required to tip it over the edge.
And having to be fresh-minded at a +90' OFR is a very new and extremely challenging task which nobody had to cope with until a few years ago...
Probably the Italy factor at least passed through the mind of Martínez Munuera (and Gil Manzano last week). But I feel quite sure that the Paris saga(s) were far from Marciniak/Kwiatkowski’s thoughts, believe me!!
Nice analysis - much more nuanced than our point about pressure above.
DeleteOne conclusion of this could be, that the whole "Let the referee take the crucial decisions of the game - always send him to the monitor" idea, that sometimes is proclaimed, actually is counterproductive.
A VAR, who hasn't "suffered" so much stress throughout the game, should be better prepared to make an objective analysis and judgement in many cases.
Nice analysis, I agree with most of things being said but just have a question: what if Marciniak and his team regards this as a punishable handball offence? I haven't seen their guidelines and I'm assuming you haven't either, the law says it's a penalty so what exactly are we basing it on when it comes to deflection = no penalty?
DeleteI understand the argument regarding this potentially being assessed as natural regardless of the ball hitting the arm directly or not, that argument I understand. But I don't really get the deflection argument, where exactly can this be classified into making it non punishable?
(btw nothing personal against you, just trying to understand the main point here).
But even the VAR was mistaken here so we reach the same destination in this incident! :). I think you are generally right Philipp and in practice, this does happen in most challenging games probably(!) - referees mostly follow the VAR's advice and the OFR is not too much more than a 'show'. Pitana's WC final penalty comes to mind as the obvious example.
DeleteIt is also why I appreciated Mateu's attitude so much, because the mental strength required to be so clear-minded at the RRA is quite remarkable.
Finally, a personal remark: VAR makes (analysing) refereeing 90% more boring, in my opinion. I find more pleasure in watching old games without it (and that's just my view, not asking others to share it). It is a safety net and it makes referees less sharp and courageous, in my judgement. But probably it has also made refereeing 10% (even) more interesting too - Faghani's infamous handball, the incident tonight - these are deeply challenging moments on a mental level, and the stress to make a right decision WITH the access of replays is >10(00) than before without it!
And even I can't deny that is an interesting innovation :).
I have a different question for you regarding the PSG penalty - do you think the decision would have been the same if it was against the French team?
ReplyDeleteNO NO NO
DeleteLast season it was 100% penalty - deflection doesn't matter. I don't know whether the instructions have been (really) updated before this season.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I'm wondering as well, according to law this is still a clear penalty (if the initial movement is considered as unnatural of course). I am very interested in what the current guidelines are (with clips!)
DeleteATTENTION ATTENTION! According to the latest interpretations of the International Board, such a play is illegal. Code it everyone! Well done Marciniak! He didn't run to the monitor to make a mistake. Let's remember that the decision on the pitch was different. A very good match by Marciniak.
DeleteOf course, the regulations themselves are absurd, but it's not Marciniak's fault. Regards
The most worrying thing is that nobody understands anymore when a penalty shiuld be awarded for handball. From 100 penalties gor handball, 90 are a conteoversy and we say that any decision should be supported, which is not ok. For me, this evenimg it is B in the pool, wrong decision. Look at us, on a blog where everybody is supposed to know one or two things about refereeing; and there are so many opinions, some of them totally different to others. The average football fans who debate or the TV pundits that influence the mass opinion don't have a chance. I don't know how much the game of football can continue like this. Maybe now IFAB or maybe even the Ref Com will realise the size of the problem and will sent CLEAR instructions to the public.
ReplyDeleteThe rule that deflections are not punishable disappeared in the 2021/2022 version of the Laws of the Game. Therefore, in this year’s LotG the defender is deemed taking a risk getting hit by the ball. The guidelines I learnt (which are supposedly the ones from UEFA as I was told) state that a defender must not take the risk getting hit when he can expect a cross/shot on goal and mustn‘t leave his hand/arm outstreched. This interpretation backs Marciniak‘s decision and so do I (as a referee) although this is definitely not what football and me (as a fan) wants.
ReplyDeleteI agree with EVERY single word and letter you just wrote, summarizes what I've been saying this whole evening. This is what has been told to me as well and what the law says but NOT what a football fan wants!
DeleteYes but then the deflection makes no difference, the main argument here for like 99% of people commenting is that it’s a scandaleous decision because of the deflection, I previously stated that the argument for natural/unnatural position of the hand itself is a SUBJECTIVE decision and if you ask 10 elite referees they will all have different opinions, but the main argument of people tonight is the deflection argument which is why it’s so heated. I agree with you tho, this can be assessed as natural position of the hand, for me it’s unnatural but yes, it can be natural due to the running position but the deflection has nothing to do with it being natural or not (from what I know/understand).
DeleteATTENTION ATTENTION! According to the latest interpretations of the International Board, such a play is illegal. Code it everyone! Well done Marciniak! He didn't run to the monitor to make a mistake. Let's remember that the decision on the pitch was different. A very good match by Marciniak.
ReplyDeleteOf course, the regulations themselves are absurd, but it's not Marciniak's fault. Regards
Yes, the handball rule has been revised but not for this type of position.
DeleteEveryone keeps making statements like these without any proper information, where is it stated that the handball rule was NOT revised for this type of position? In the law? In UEFA guidelines? In your opinion? What are you basing it on?
DeleteMX must be a Marciniak fan.. defending him under every post.
DeleteAnyway, if that is a “punishable” handball under current law (which I do not hope because the position of the arm is NATURAL for the body movement), football is completely ruined. Just use your common sense to assess handballs, and see things in context, come on.
I thought football was supposed to be for the fans and the fans don’t want to see spotkicks for this
In the Bayern-Galatasaray match, despite the offside decision of the assistant referee, the goal was awarded without the VAR line being drawn. I think that scandal was much bigger than this one. Everyone here knows that if it was Real Madrid instead of Newcastle, the referee would never have given a PK in that position. After the Super League decision of some big clubs, there is no chance for small clubs to compete fairly. From now on we will see more and more such obvious and deliberate mistakes. Football is over.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely nothing wrong with giving a goal even without offside lines if the onside position is clear, completely okay according to protocol
DeleteIt is a pity because before the OFR in Paris, I think we could have talked about a very good day for Champions Legue referees. Only one OFR in Rome for the penalty at the end of the game, but not so important stuff. I just want to check the possible second YC in Manchester.
ReplyDeleteTo add, I can't imagine this discussion with anonymous comments allowed, it would be a nightmare for us to moderate it.
Many discussions about the penalty means that it is a controversial decision, when you have no talks and a few opinions, everything is OK, but that's not the case, something was wrong or at least not clear. I would agree with somebody that committee should release a statement at least about handball because nothing is clear at moment, I can't believe to sources stating about different instructions given to referees.
Then about MD6 indeed Zwayer possible in Milan game, with Borussia Dortmund already qualified, but this would show us again the troubles by committee in making assignments for this group, based on a very narrow pool of referees, and still they are not totally free because they must "respect" the unwritten rule of avoiding certain names who are not well seen by some teams... sorry if I repeat always that, but one can't believe that with so many Elite referes there aren't options for officiating in a group and you see always same names all matchdays, that's surely a big failure by committee in the years and recent times and this situation is absolutely crazy. What is strange, nevertheless, is that they easily make these assignments, we know that thank to the release of observers, without apparently worrying too much about the situation. That's my opinion, of course. Well for them if this is the last group stage edition, and then the format will change, but still... since most of people are not so expeert about refereeing, they don't notiuce such bad and extremely poor management by committee.
To add, I also think that UEFA president should try to appear more neutral, I'm not the person who believes there are hidden things and he can attend a CL game, but for a question of opportunity he could avoid, because then when such incidents happen, all people think about that and other clubs could say: "Why not the same for us?" We never saw Ceferin in all CL stadiums, being UEFA president means also taking a responsibility, but it seems that the Slovenian doesn't care too much about people opinions, that's very good for som aspects, but a certain time with all the bad thinking in today's football you should be more careful.
Agree Chefren.
DeleteČeferin, as UEFA president, has to be neutral and independent in mind and appearance. In other words:
1). In mind: he should not have any interests or tight relations with any clubs.
2) In appearance: his integrity and neutrality shouldn’t be questioned by people like us, outside of the situation.
First Čeferin making statements that it would be a disaster if Italy fail to qualify. Then watching a game with the president of a club… He does not “appear” neutral or distanced at all.
I don’t blame Marciniak. For him, very difficult to ignore the OFR. As someone wrote, rejecting an OFR puts him in a difficult position: some would argue the referee is biased, because VAR assessed it as “clear and obvious.” (PSG-president would be furious of course). I think, VAR shouldn’t have called him. But that’s just my opinion…
I’m getting Argentina WC2022 vibes with all the soft (and even wrong) decisions in PSG’s favor.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI expected this damage control Marciniak fans. These people now try to relativize the worst decision in UCL this season. And they try to convince us we have split opinions. But it's 5 people on this blog against the rest of the world. It's easy to blame the ref com for everything that's wrong.
ReplyDeleteSo, Chefren now doesn't believe there were clear instructions about handball before the season even though several sources confirmed it.
Chefren, would you defend Siebert if he gave this kind of penalty? Or Sidiropoulus? Or Vincic? Or Kabakov? Or Jovanovic? No, I don't think so. I don't recall you answering the Forlan's question from a couple of weeks ago: were you ever in direct or indirect contact with any of the elite referees? Please answer because from reading your posts I'm not so sure anymore you are objective.
I‘m really tired of all these accusations against Chefren (and in general). If he (or an other blog member) has a different opinion all of a sudden people think that he is biased towards some referees. Why should he? Why isnt‘t he allowed to disagree with the opinion of the majoritiy (who mostly does not base its opinion on the laws in this case, but we leave that aside…)? This blog is the only place where one can discuss different opinions about referees so please let us do that and stop accuse anyone (especially Chefren who puts lots of effort in in it!) of „fanboyism“ only because of different points ov view.
DeleteAnd once again: As much as we hate such penalties (I think that‘s what we all agree about) it is not necessarily wrong by the law. It‘s a question of the interpretation of the passages in law 12 about „natural position“ and „taking risk of their arm/hand being bit“.
Delete@Jonas
DeleteI totally agree with you.
Let us cool down and regain the joy of football and discussing it (refs included).
But I would not let aside yesterday's discussion in one specific respect: Could you, Chefren, or anyone else close enough to reliant sources verify or falsify, if the "recommendation" of no PK after deflection from the own body still applies or not. There were different opinions on that on this blog, and maybe a clarification would help us all.
Thank you in advance!
I think, reacting to the question above that both B and D are correct here. Yes, the handball rule is unclear in many situations. But it's also blatantly obvious that this was not a punishable handball which interpretation of the law you have.
ReplyDeleteAs you can see, there are arguments for awarding a penalty kick, but there are also serious arguments against. Personally, I would prefer that penalty kicks were not awarded in such situations in football, but referees can and should be assessed only in the light of the "Laws of the Game", official interpretations and official guidelines that they receive from their superiors, i.e. FIFA or UEFA.
ReplyDeleteThis is all due to frequently changing interpretations of the contact between the ball and the hand. While fouls are whistled based on the consequences of the players' actions, and their intentions, intentionality or randomness have no significance for determining a foul - the opposite is true when it comes to the contact of the ball with the hand. The key here is the intention or lack thereof. However, the intention is usually not visible, so referees must use criteria to assess the contact between the ball and the hand. Unfortunately, interpretations of these criteria have changed more often than any other provision in recent years. Far too often. The result is that sometimes even referees get lost, not to mention players, coaches and fans.
ReplyDeleteTo Chefren's question, there is one answer!
ReplyDelete"C" Marciniak's decision is fully justified.
Dear colleagues! I have already mentioned that the judge cannot be blamed for absurd regulations. The legislators, the people who create the rules of football, are to blame.
Despite the controversy, the assessment of Szymon Marciniak's performance will be very high.
I fully agree with Samuel's comment. We are too much focusing on how the law is applied but most of the case is the law itself that is wrong. We really need to carefully understand which are the inputs from IFAB, Uefa and REF Committee about the vast amount of handball cases before judging the operate of Marciniak and Kwiatkowski.
DeleteThe same happened on offside evaluation, where the rules and the applications respect the hundreds of different cases are really weird, not clear and not easy.
In many cases legislators are making difficult the job of the referees; rules must be easy and clever. Football should not be the game based on deep technology or Artificial Intelligence to compute how many microns the attacker is ahead the defender to blow offside.
In US WC 1994, Paolo Casarin, the head of FIFA referee, defined, in agreement with the body of the football, that it's offside only if there is a light between the attacker and the defender, so if the player attacking is completely over than his contending; and believe me everything was much more easy.
The same should be for hand ball
Marco Fritz (GER) replaced Kwiatkowski in Real Sociedad - Salzburg !!
ReplyDeleteI am not really surprised honestly. In my opinion his call for OFR yesterday can't be supported. I've said it, UEFA must assess the penalty as a mistake.
We almost reach 200 comments, let's move the discussion in the other UCL thread for today's games.