Tuesday, 22 November 2022

Game 6: César Ramos in Denmark vs. Tunisia (discussion)

The opening game of Group D, and the Mexican ref's fourth World Cup assignment. The important question: short or long sleeves after 2018? ;) Let's discuss!


Game 6 - Doha (14:00 CET)
DENMARK - TUNISIA
Referee: César Ramos (MEX)
Assistant Referee 1: Alberto Morín (MEX)
Assistant Referee 2: Miguel Hernández (MEX)
Fourth Official: Said Martínez (HON)
Reserve Assistant Referee: Walter López (HON)
Video Assistant Referee: Fernando Guerrero (MEX)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Armando Villarreal (USA)
Offside Video Assistant Referee: Gabriel Chade (ARG)
Support Video Assistant Referee: Juan Martínez Munuera (ESP)
Standby Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Mahmoud Abouelregal (EGY)

58 comments:

  1. Best quality of 64' from ARGKSA for now:
    https://streamja.com/qL9W2

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    1. At first I thought that Vincic was running towards VAR monitor.

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    2. This is no penalty only in case that Otamendi was in offside position. Clear penalty+YC IMO... And VAR intervention, of course

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    3. Agree with DrMr on this one. Seems like an evident mistake. I would be very interested in the official explanation for this situation.

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    4. Interesting situation. Normally a PK for me. What do you think Mikael?

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  2. Tello being reported as referee of Switzerland vs Cameroon

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  3. Turpin reported to have Uruguay vs South Korea

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  4. Elfath to referee Portugal vs Ghana

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  5. To answer the question at the top: Short sleeves for Ramos.
    And again the black kit.
    Probably we will see other colours in the next two games with the dark home kits of Mexico and France.

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  6. I must say probably the most boring game so far, and easy job for Ramos thus far...

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  7. I don't think it is boring - there are two teams trying to play power football with high physical intensity. But I would agree if you meant that there have happened more spectacular games ...
    Ramos has a good life so far. But he weighes differently. If Kristensen's attack is YC (which I accept), why isn't pushing an opponent's back with two hands and sending him over the outline?
    There were other situations as well, where Ramos was gracious with the surprisingly strong Tunesian team.

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    1. Yep,agree with your choice of words,I was maybe too harsh.

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    2. Yes.
      22' was a yellow but 44' not a yellow. Strange!

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  8. Excellent no-call by Ramos, 100% natural position despite the distance from the body. This is where players arms go when they run.

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    1. I have to say, if this is the line used in this World Cup, I like this approach so much more than UEFA’s!

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    2. +1 absolutely brilliant decision

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    3. Both penalty appeal dismissed perfectly. Absolutely brilliant decision and can't believe that man was in the middle in Uruguay vs Portugal in 2018.

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  9. Why he didn't Check VAR for Andersen Handball??? Tunisia 100% Robbed

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    1. Never ever punishable handball. Arm near body, natural position, short distance.

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  10. No punishable handball in my eyes. That is a very unexpected ball, deflected from short distance and as I would argue also a natural position of the arm. So play-on is absolutely correct here.

    Now supportable YC for SPA.

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  11. Now missed YC in 79 'for pulling down DEN #21

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    1. Not a mandatory yc for me. I am fine with no booking

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    2. It's a tricky one. In MLS I think you'd see that punished as SPA, but elsewhere maybe not. It's a little awkward because a Danish player had just been punished for a much clearer SPA just a minute earlier.

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  12. Interesting. I think no PK is okay, but why defensive freekick? Was there a foul?

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    1. Pushing by attacking player in the same time of possible penalty call. Can be seen from behind camera .

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    2. There was a push on defender before the handball.

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    3. VAR deemed the handball punishable but there is also a foul in the APP, Danish player charges a Tunisian player unfairly at the front post prior to the handling which was missed.

      OFR is the correct procedure in this case, to allow the Referee to see all of the information as it would be a penalty if not for the push.

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    4. Thanks for the answers!
      If VAR thinks this is a punishable handball, the procedure is correct, but I think this should not be an OFR. Despite perhaps Ramos having not seen the incident at all...

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  13. Ok no penalty, but what about corner???

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  14. Joke OFR. Never a penalty.Ball played from players own body and totally unexpected. No blocking movement.

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    1. The worst OFR of the tournament so far.

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    2. It would be PK (most probabaly) without that attacking foul occured before handball.

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  15. wonderful decision with no penalty by Ramos. Wrong intervention for me

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  16. Anyone know how that was a Tunisian free kick?

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  17. OFR for potential denmark penalty reviewed no penalty. Agree as it came of the Tunisian player and then onto the hand.

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  18. Wooooooow! Big BRAVOOOOOO for the ref for not giving a penalty for Denmark! Bad decision from VAR ref to call him for an OFR. I was very affraid that he will give PK, but that was brave and excellent decision!

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  19. Guerrero,Villareal and Munuera what is wrong with you all or maybe some of them for calling Ramos to review that.

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  20. Well-executed and efficient OFR at the end there. Clear and obvious handball missed that would have been a PK, so a review is needed, but the foul that occurred in the APP also negates that.

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  21. Not a challenging game but I must say Ramos has been consistent and excellent. Two correct decisions with no penalty in the second half. I can see his huge improvement after 2018 WC & 2019 Asian Cup. His second game is expected, maybe in a high profile game in MD3

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  22. Idk about the comments "bad intervention" - I think Ramos relied exclusively on Guerrero there (how could you be so sure of defensive fk from that one angle at +93'...), and it was always the plan to call OFR -> fk to Tunisia.

    Waiting for the more replays after the advert break now, I'm not completely convinced about this decision (yet).

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    1. CLEAR charging at the front post, I see it now. PERFECT Guerrero between 71' and +93'. Bravo Collina and his officials again!!

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    2. +1 I also belive that OFR was for defensive FK before handball

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    3. It was OFR for possible PK but also potential attacking foul in APP.

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    4. Fully agree with you on this, perfect procedure by the officials there. And of course, correct final decision.

      Generally speaking, a good performance by Ramos IMO. Slightly lenient (perfect for the match), but still consistent foul detection, clear and correct disciplinary line. Two very nice play on decisions in two KMI penalty area incidents.

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    5. IMHO That was best referee performance so far

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  23. Very good performance from César Ramos

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  24. 71' Penalty appeal https://streamable.com/39wdle
    90+3 OFR
    https://streamable.com/gk0s52

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    1. I didn't watch the game, thank you for the clips, first incident absolutely correct to play on, arm in natural position considering the movement, second situation wrong VAR intervention for me, but we can praise the fact that in FIFA, differently from UEFA, a referee is free to whistle a free kick in favor of defenders, while in UEFA we have the strict approach: either penalty or nothing. More freedom is good if you want to make more OFRs, but of course basically this shouldn't have been called, whistling penalty would have been totally wrong. Absolutely excellent management by Ramos, with that decision, glad if he did well for the rest of the game. We will see whether Mexican VAR will get another game.

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  25. Only little mistakes, but many critical situations well spotted and brave enough to refuse pk after wrong ofr, which was perfect. Very good foul detection, physics, body language. Distanced, but absolutely respected, natural authority...

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  26. I had very good impression from César Ramos already four years ago, he is very solid referee...

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  27. As my compatriot, I will not comment on Ramos' performance. I will simply say that based on what I've read above. I am happy that my compatriot had a promising start to his tournament.

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  28. Key Match Incidents:

    23’, 55’ - Correctly disallowed goals (of TUN and DEN, respectively) due to offside. Good delayed calls by Miguel Hernández.

    41’ - Penalty area incident: kicking. Following a correct play-on call after a tackle in the midfield, we saw a duel between 14TUN and 23DEN in Tunisian penalty area. The Dane slightly plays the ball in order to provoke a contact from the opponent. He succeeds as 14TUN carelessly kicks him from behind. Technically, it is an offence but given the context - 23DEN not being interested in continuing play / reaching the ball and just falling down as a sack of potatoes in a strange direction - I would say a correct call has been made.

    71’ - Penalty area incident: handball. 2DEN intercepts the ball played too strongly by 24TUN who follows the Dane and kicks the ball before 2DEN manages to perform the second touch. The ball hit the Scandinavian in the arm that is out from the body but considering that:
    the ball was totally unexpected,
    played from a very short distance,
    the hand position was a part of natural movement
    any other decision than play-on would be against both common sense and the laws of the game. Correct decision by both Ramos and Fernando Guerrero.

    83’ - Penalty area incident: impeding. 5DEN enters the Tunisian penalty area from the side while 8TUN performs a sliding tackle by which he slightly plays the ball by the tip of the shoe. After a fraction of a second, the ball is played by the Dane over the sliding opponent whose momentum leads to a contact with the attacking player. The contact occurs off the field but, as we know, it doesn’t matter as long as the ball is in play. The referee awards a goal kick which is a totally wrong decision - the ball was in play all the time. There are some doubts about the tackle being an offence though: was the contact enough for a PK being given? did it really impact an opponent’s progress? was the slight touch on the ball enough to deem the tackle as fair? Given all that, we should support Guerrero in staying silent - at least supportable, if not correct, call.

    87’ - Potential VC by 20TUN who runs behind 21DEN, pushes him and, finally, lands his studs on the opponent’s Achilles tendon. Without a replay we can only assess the incident from the main camera’s angle and it would be too harsh to say: 100% red card has been missed. However, it was a big miss, especially by Said Martínez who had a perfect view on the incident. The furious reaction of the Danish bench says much about the incident. Ramos looked like he didn’t know what exactly happened - whistled FK and just observed everything from a certain distance. Not good…

    90+3’ - Penalty area incident: handball. The ball played from a corner kick hits 4TUN in the naturally positioned right hand that is stuck to the body and deflects towards the left hand that is quite out from the body and a little bit raised = unnaturally positioned. Technically speaking, it is an offence, as a previous deflection from the player DOES NOT cancel a punishable handball by the same player (contrary to a scenario when the ball is deliberately played by the ‘offender’). However, a possible penalty call would be really harsh given that three players jumped for the ball in front of 4TUN. In my opinion, finding a blatant off-the-ball push by 7DEN before the handball occurred, just to communicate “I saw the handball, for me it is punishable, but come on, guys…” was a masterclass by Guerrero. It took about one minute to call Ramos for an OFR but the final decision was optimal.

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    1. Overview:

      César Ramos is another referee (after Raphael Claus) who had a reputation of being overly lenient and permissive in the past. His performance was quite a mixed bag in this game - he combined good, preventative refereeing, cool head in key scenes with being overwhelmed in some scenes. In general, the Mexican was distant towards players and offered a serious facial expression through the whole game.

      He set the tone early in the game, allowing some physical challenges and not falling for exaggerated reactions. At this tournament, it has become a constant element of each game, but one has to mention the very good prevention of stealing metres at throw-ins and preventative warnings at set pieces.

      Disciplinary control was not the best. No card for SPA-like holding by 24TUN was still OK but a stronger reaction should have followed. Decision about the opening caution to 13DEN for reckless (in fact: only careless) step on foot at 13’ was very late and most likely taken after logical deduction when seeing a removed shoe. Two good chances to even out the cards were not taken by Ramos after a cynical and provocative (also leading to a conflict) push by 9TUN at 44’ and the same player’s late challenge at 45+3’. Correct yellow cards followed at 78’ (SPA by 7DEN) and 85’ (reckless challenge by 11TUN). At 87’, the crew consisting of REF-4OF-AR1 under-estimated a reckless step on Achilles tendon, performed by 20TUN. Unfortunately, no replay was shown to closely assess the real nature and impact of this (borderline to SFP?) challenge. The DEN bench were furious but Ramos didn’t even approach the scene.

      To sum it up: correct or supportable calls in three KMIs live (41’, 71’, 83’), well sold OFR for missed handball and a foul prior to that (90+3’; not so easy to spot live), distant and serious leadership style with some good preventative and management moments combined with weak disciplinary choices (wrong YC and missed two YCs - one of which was very borderline to VC). Still expected level by the Mexican though.

      Marks:
      César Ramos - 7
      Alberto Morín - 7
      Miguel Hernández - 7
      Fernando Guerrero - IV

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