Estadio Santiago Bernabéu, Madrid (ESP)
Real Madrid CF - Juventus FC
Referee: Michael Oliver (ENG)
Assistant Referee 1: Stuart Burt (ENG)
Assistant Referee 2: Simon Bennett (ENG)
Additional Assistant Referee 1: Martin Atkinson (ENG)
Additional Assistant Referee 2: Andre Marriner (ENG)
Fourth Official: Lee Betts (ENG)
UEFA Referee Observer: Alexandru Deaconu (ROU)
UEFA Delegate: Rainer Koch (GER)
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https://streamable.com/sqhpx
ReplyDeletePenalty, apologies for low quality
No words for Oliver's calmness throughout the match: more than immense, more than excellent.
DeletePersonally I wouldn't have whistled it, but is no black/white mistake IMO.
But the lack of a 2YC->RC or direct RC is.
So 7,9(7) agree with Shearer
Hm, none of those replays shows clearly how strong the push was. I hope, that we will still get such a perspective.
DeleteThanks for the video nevertheless.
Is there enough intensity? Is there? Lucas felt Benatia's arm and immediately started to fall - that is so characteristic for Real's and Barca's players!
DeleteWell, I will watch Oliver's every match in Premier League from now, and I expect at least 3 PKs in every match, because such kind of pushes happens all the time in Premier league, and he never gave a penalty for it!
And to be clear, I think Oliver is excellent referee with big potential!
Teo, totally agreed.
DeleteFor me, it is a PK, (not 100% clear, but for me it is a PK) a clear RC for Buffon - right decisions by Oliver. But the RC for Benatia is missing and of course it's difficult to give two RC for Juve in this situation, but it is a clear mistake. In addition, I missed the YC for Ronaldo or I didn't the the YC, but obviously he get the YC
ReplyDelete(REPLY TO CHEFREN'S MESSAGE IN PREVIOUS POST).
ReplyDeleteI have to say I understand (and partially share) those words: Collina and the committee risked Oliver's career tonight. It was not a necessary appointment for such a young official in his fourth month as Elite. After Barça-PSG, I would expect them to have learnt some lessons about what UCL is: nothing is set in stone and as soon as there are chances for a come-back, the game will get heated and the referee will be the responsible of everything for fans and press. So, why appoint a referee with so little experience in UCL KO matches for the return leg of a match which was last year's final? Oliver was quite good (except card management as you said and simulation detection) for 92 minutes. But just one minute has put him in a very difficult situation, I think.
VAR is a must, specially for the referees. Imagine yesterday if Mateu's team could have rewatched the situation. If you have good managers and you can prevent their human crucial mistakes, then you have improved the sport.
Wait, you think VAR would have overturned that penalty?
DeleteI don’t think var would’ve overturned it at all because of decisions in the Bundesliga and serie a this year.
DeleteI don't know, maybe. In the end, it depends on referee's interpretation and if VAR thinks the referee should rewatch the incident or not and then on referee's criteria. TBH, VAR is not implemented yet on any competition I follow, so I don't really know if they would intervene in this situation or not.
DeleteBut other situations such the one I put as an example are clear mistakes whose solution is easy and which VAR would prevent.
But you say it's a "must" for the referees after observing it today. I am trying to understand what you mean. VAR would have (and should have) done nothing here. It was a perfectly reasonable penalty decision. All VAR would do is give fans and players another person to complain about.
DeleteNever... i‘m a fan of VAR and for me it wasn‘t a clear penalty but it was also not a clear mistake
DeleteI didn't say that. Juve's president said that VAR must be implemented in UCL. I say I agree. Not because this incident, but because many others which are obvious.
DeleteIt is a perfectly reasonable penalty decision in your opinion. I'm sorry, but I disagree. It is a very debatable penalty decision. Maybe not a clear and obvious mistake for VAR to review. But not a stonewall, undebatable penalty either.
Not a situation for VAR, but what might have been different (it should not):
DeleteIf the referee knows, that there is VAR, he might not give such a penalty, because he knows, that it can be corrected, if it is a clear foul.
But juve’s president, and a lot of other people, are only mentioning the var because they believe that the decision was clearly incorrect, which it wasn’t. People seem to think that var = getting the decision you want. I guarantee the if/when var is implemented these same people will be complaining about it because they are not getting the decisions they want.
DeletePhilipp: Bundesliga, Serie a and Mls all show that that won’t happen.
DeleteHowever, VAR should have supported this call, without intervening, according to protocol.
DeleteAbout the risk taken by committee, I hope they were partially aware, but I'm sure they would have never guessed something like that.
DeleteBut we can't be sure whether another referee, maybe an "old" or experienced Elite, would have taken a different decision there.
Let's make something clear. My comment was based on what Chefren said: "Incredible interview by Agnelli, Juventus president.
DeleteHe is against Oliver, he wants immediately VAR in Champions League, he also blamed Collina and he wished that committee could be changed soon. "
I didn't say anything bad about Oliver himself, mainly because he was very good in general terms. I referred to the second sentence as it is: "he wants VAR immediately". So do I. Not because of tonight, but because it is an improvement for referees. That is what I meant.
Understood.
DeleteThe thing is not about the decision itself. It is about the target you are providing for the fans. Not the same if that situation is handled by Kuipers, Çakir or other experienced names that if it is handled by Oliver, who is a fairly new name for most European teams in UCL.
DeleteNo way VAR rules out the penalty as a clear and obvious error.
DeleteOnly thing VAR would do is prevent Buffon from getting sent off, as the players would know it was being checked.
That being said, being “experienced”/ “known” to the fans does not prevent referees from facing abuse or dissent. Fans and players, especially disappointed ones, don’t care about who made the decision, they only care about the decision and will act accordingly.
DeleteFully agreed with George.
DeleteI am still angry how UEFA threw Aytekin under the bus last year by giving him (what turned out to be) a mission impossible, and then just decided that they don't need him anymore, in place of Felix Zwayer (nothing against him, a great referee).
Collina again underestimated a tie, and look...
My full respect to Deniz Aytekin and Michael Oliver who both showed themselves to be of the best European referees on their nights.
Deniz Aytekin... "best European referees on their nights". Facepalm.
DeleteSo all 4 referees this week had that some controversial situations, which were more (Mateu, Oliver) or less (Turpin, Collum) decisive.
ReplyDeleteNow we can speculate, whether appointing Kuipers, Mazic and Skomina for these matches would have prevented this. Maybe yes, but it would also be possible, that they had taken the same decisions. Then UEFA would have difficulties with appointments for the SF and final now - so maybe a wise choice...
It will also be interesting to see, whether any of the 4 will get a further match. I think, before the matches all were candidates for at least an EL SF. Now the appointments will show, whose performances were liked by UEFA.
I have to say one thing. The penalty is also affected by the notorious difference of size between the offender (Benatia) and the attacker (Lucas)
ReplyDeleteHe ran straight into his back and shoved him! What does size have to do with it? Lucas had no way to prepare for that "challenge."
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHe was calm but really angry, he really thinks what he said. I understand that he could be angry because Juventus is out in a cruel manner and he got sent off, but it's really appaling to hear.
DeleteWhat did he say can someone please tell me?
DeleteHe said:"go take a sh*t"at least this wrote the media
DeleteChefren, can I get you available in Twitter for a bit of chat, of course, whenever you're a little bit free :)
ReplyDeleteSorry Soham, I can't, really busy at moment with many things, we will have this opportunity soon.
DeleteYes for sure... I will catch up with you whenever you are free... Maybe after 2-3 days... No problem :)
DeleteWhat a reminder on Aytekin!
ReplyDeleteAnd that is meant fully as a compliment to Oliver.
=> Collina appointing a referee to a top class match thanks to the first match score, absolutely immense performance showing huge potential, but 'tarnished' in additional time thanks to an acceptable but maybe not that wise decision, and now surely will bare a huge medial coverage.
(I know Aytekin made another mistake missing a penalty for Paris before, and that Oliver will still be the top referee of England unlike that Zwayer overtook Aytekin etcetera)
Even Turpin last night is a designation of the same format.
Many things to consider for PLC...
When his decision is acceptable, his reputation cannot be 'tarnished'... Both Collina and Oliver should be least bothered about what some armchair pundits in social media thinks about it... The only thing that matters is Deaconu's report!!
DeleteReferee committee's are just like Police Departments. They both have the "back the badge" attitude. They both lack transparency. They evaluate/investigate themselves. And when people criticize their process. They dismiss said criticism by saying that those criticizing don't understand how things work. Add to this that reports are not made public. Well that leads to a lot of mistrust of referee committees. Regardless of what Deaconu feels or thinks. Do you honestly think that he'll be allowed by "higher ups" to deem Oliver's PK decision as a mistake? Not chance in h*ll. After all the outcry, the committee will yet again "sweep" yet another controversial (possibly wrong) decision under the rug.
DeleteGianluigi Buffon with more than harsh words against Oliver, he said that Oliver has no guts to whistle such games and he had to be on the stands eating something inested of being on the pitch (he used even clearer words...).
ReplyDeleteWords that he's entitled to say. And feelings that he's entitled to have.
DeleteHe has to be fined... He doesn't have the liberty to speak whatever garbage he feels like under any circumstances!!
DeleteSure he does. He knows that his word choice will have consequences. However that does in no way man that he can say whatever he damn feels like. Who's going to stop him or anybody from Juventus from openly speaking their minds?
DeleteRefs can not be protected like white bears! They should be criticized when they make mistakes. Ok, one should find appropriate words, but football is not about the refs, it is about the players!!! They are training every day, whole their life - one crucial, very crucial wrong decision and all their hard work is for nothing!
DeleteIn England, whenever you mention word ref, you get fined! So, I am not surprised that they do not have the ref for WC.
Actual mistakes, not perceived “mistakes” due to their judgment and rationality being clouded by disappointment.
DeleteAlso I don’t get the correlation between fines for insulting, not criticizing a referee’s performance, and not going to the World Cup. That seems like a stretch.
I find it laughable when people act like referees are some sort of endangered species who must not be looked at in weird way or much less spoken about in a negative manner. Grow up! Criticism is part of life. If you as a Referee can't handle criticism. Go find yourself a safe place and something else to do.
DeleteConstructive criticism* he’s just bitter and resorted to insulting the referee (because apparently that will do something.)
DeleteIs he entitled to that opinion?
DeleteAre we entitled to our opinion? Well technically we’re entitled to our informed opinion, but that’s besides the point. He can have an opinion but that doesn’t stop him from facing consequences for voicing them since We don’t have to accept it.
DeleteThere is this one thing in democratic societies called free speech
DeleteTeo with that comment I would never believe you if you said you are a referee. Your comment is like the players work harder than the refs. The refs work way harder and have way more pressure on themselves. And this wasn’t even a mistake which makes the reactions even worse.
DeleteWhat exactly is free speech? Freedom of speech does not mean exemption from criticism from others nor does it mean that all your opinions have to be accepted.
DeleteAh yes, freedom of speech. Gotta love it. And as I said before. Gigi knows that his words will bring consequences. A mere drop in the bucket for Gigi.
DeleteLol people always throw around that without knowing what it means. At least in the USA, freedom of speech only means that you can’t get jailed for speaking out against the government it has nothing to do with you voicing your unnecessary, incorrect, hurtful and mean comments.
DeleteThey dont have to be accepted. But you should not be fined for having them and saying them publicly
DeleteIt doesnt matter if they are necessary or not or if they hurt someones feelings
DeleteWell tell that to every organization that does just that. Also the competition makes its own rules which participants have to follow and fining is one of the ways it used to show that an opinion was not accepted.
DeleteVictor: football is not about the refs! How can you say that refs work way harder than players? All of them have their regular jobs, e.g. Eriksson and Kuipers are millionaires (and they didn't get rich from refereeing, it is more hobby to them). Players are playing football, not the refs - they should only make good decisions.
DeleteIf they make mistake (who doesn't), they shouldn't be insult (and mostly they are not), but should be blamed and criticized. About England - I wanted to say that refs are overprotected, so whatever they do - Federation obviously find correct. You can see that ref make two big mistakes in one game, and next week he is again on the pitch. No sanctions - nothing. Well, how can you expect from them to improve themselves when they know they are fully protected? They don't. So what is the consequence of this politics? After 80 years England doesn't have the ref on WC.
In England referees aren’t evaluated after every match necessarily its more of a continuous evaluation. And evaluating them after every match does not mean that the refereeing standard will improve, eg in la liga.
DeleteI am refereeing enthusiast. But i agree taht referees should be side actors in every game.
DeleteTeo: So you base salary on how hard you work? A player can make 50 mistakes but decide the game in minute 90 and he is a hero. A referee can make 50 correct calls and one mistake minute 90 and his career might end forever. Who has a tougher job and who has to work harder?
DeleteArbitroInternacional
ReplyDelete@ArbitroInteBlog
Si le van a caer a alguien debe ser a Collina. No puedes subestimar un partido entre estos dos equipos y poner a debutar un árbitro en eliminatorias de champions.
Agreed!!!
Well but that’s assuming that a more experienced referee would’ve made a different decision while implying that Michael Oliver did a really poor job.
DeleteWas Oliver's appointment a signal by the committee that in their mind the series was resolved?
DeleteI think to some extent. They definitely made a gamble, but let’s not act like Oliver wasn’t in control tonight.
Delete89 minutes of good can be tarnished by one questionable incident in the 90th. Most if not all win not be able to recall his first 92 minutes. Yet the entire world will have an opinion about the 93rd minute.
DeleteAnd you think that this is the case because of the penalty in question? Or would they have focused on this even if it was textbook penalty? The “world’s” opinion does not matter, the only think that matters is that of the observer who is expected to be rational and objective unlike the “world” or disappointed fans and spectators.
DeleteAh yes the observer. The "we investigated ourselves and we found no wrong doing". All while having zero transparency. The trust us, we know what we're doing bit does nothing to bring any credibility to the committee.
DeleteBecause fans basing their acceptance or outrage at refereeing decisions on the teams benefitting is much better. Let’s listen to fans the most objective Lot there is.
DeleteThus the reason why fans don't evaluate the Referee's. Yet the committees who do. The same ones who work in complete secrecy. Continue to do nothing to bring credibility out believability to referee performances.
DeleteTake a page from American sports leagues. Who openly say and expose when their officials make the wrong call. And who openly show when referees are removed from assignments for poor performances.
That goes a long way in winning over fans and showing that they are actually taking steps to improve officiating.
Yet there is still so much dissent and complaining in the American leagues. Fans are only satisfied when refereeing decisions go in their favor as soon as it goes against them, even if the decision is correct, they will complain.
DeleteI think that reports of obserevers should be made public
DeleteAs do I, however, I contend that doing this would not please fans especially when they don’t get the desired results. Even if they are faced with incontrovertible evidence that a decision was correct and that the observer thought so too they’d still be mad.
DeleteIt is more thing of rebuilding trust then satisfying everyone
DeleteComplaining happens all over the world in all sports. It's not a US specific issue. However what US sports league do that FIFA don't do. Is be much more transparent in regards to it's officials. The publicly say when an official had gotten it wrong. Do fans think less of those referees? No. Fans actually like the fact that referees accept, acknowledge, and after open that they make mistakes.
DeleteNo better example of this than Major League Baseball umpire Jim Joyce. And because of this, he is one of the most beloved umpires in baseball.
I agree Filip. But FIFA it's all knowing (corrupt) knowledge insists on keeping it's fans in the dark.
You made it seem as if it didn’t happen in the USA by saying that uefa should take a leaf out of its book however the fact that the result is the same shows where the problem lies imo.
DeleteI want to see PLC come out publicly to either support referees or in case of a bad job. Openly accept that mistakes were made. And share what corrective action will be taken. That's all. #tranparency #endsecrecy
DeleteIf he came out right now and said that he considers the decision a correct one would you accept that? I doubt it.
DeleteIf it was a full and complete explanation that included exactly what foul Oliver saw. Then yes.
DeleteOf course PLC would also need to include the mistakes. Like explaininh why Benatia was not sent off.
So if it's a simple and empty, "he got it right" explanation. No thanks.
Just one question for all of you.
ReplyDeleteWith VAR, if Oliver says play on and then watch the replay, what would be his decision?
I'm sure that he would call the penalty.
If you are sure, zasto pitas? :-) (sada znamo da nisi Dejan Nedic :-)))
DeleteJust imagine this happened on the opposite side - would he gave it? I'm sure not, not even with the VAR (pressure on Santiago Bernabeu would be enormous and he wuoldn't have guts for that). Ok, all of you will say speculations, speculations... Name it as you wish, but it is simply the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
I'm asking for your opinion and I'm expressing my opinion. What's wrong with that?
DeleteAnd we speak about refereeing, not some speculations (even sometimes they sound logical)
Mr. Teo can you please stick to objective discussions on the refereeing... I know you smell a lot of conspiracy theories but please go and seek attention elsewhere... This is a refereeing blog and our focus is on the decisions made and their correctness... We have no business in predicting what the referee would've done if this happened in the other box... This is not just not the right place for that kind of useless discussion, maybe the other pages that you say you've visited, will be the right place for these things!!
DeleteI'm so sorry for Michael. He did very well until injury time. I can't understand why he awarded Real that penalty taking into account his free-flowing approach for 90 minutes. Total lack of coherence. I'm disappointed and simultaneously surprised at how an experienced Premier League official couldn't keep his cool under pressure. None of the replies show a clear foul and a referee cannot rush such a decision under those circumstances. Was he sure about it? No way!
ReplyDeletePushing your opponent from behind with your arms is a foul. What else do you want? Oliver should be praised.
DeleteI'm curios what about the camera behind the goal on the opposite side (not where Atkinson stood).
DeleteIt's the perfect angle but the only one we dont have!
There might have been inputs from Martin Atkinson as well... Oliver was calm, composed and had the guts and braveness to make the correct call at a crucial time... Just like Felix Brych has the courage to make big decisions ;)
DeleteNo push wahtsoever. Benatia might have kicked Vazquez but it's not crystal clear. Most difficult thing to accept here is the lack of coherence. According to Oliver's approach during 90 minutes, not a foul by any means.
DeleteNice joke, Soham ;) It's a pitty Oliver took that decision. He was very very good for most of the time.
DeleteSteve, IMO it's not fair duel, so we can't speak about criteria and compare it with other tackles for 90'.
DeleteIt's pushing from behind, you don't need that much intensity to foul the opponent.
No push what so ever? I am 100% sure they called the push and not the kick. Cler push with the arms. I wonder what camera angle you saw the video from.
DeleteVictor, this is not basketball! In football you can use your arms and touch your opponents as long as you don't push. No push here. Thing is it's still unclear whether Benatia kicked Vazquez, the ball or both at the same time. DrMr, he did not stick to his approach and that was his sin.
DeleteHe clearly pushed him and charging from behind is not allowed in football.
Delete"He clearly pushed him". He doesn't even push...how can you use the word "clearly"?
DeleteAs I said you have watched it from some weird angle. His hand is clearly pushing on his bck and that’s why he fell. It was a blatant push.
DeleteBlatant push ? That's a joke ? As Steve said: this is not basketball. Benatia touched Vazquez with hands for less than a second, this is not a push (I don't want to say that Vazquez started to fail when he felt a soft hand behind him...)
DeleteThe Real Madrid player was going to go down regardless of how the Juve player challenged for the ball. Furthermore I question Oliver's positioning and what he was actually able to see. He blew based on the overly dramatic fall/dive by the Madrid player. A player who as I said before, was going to go to ground and try to bait the referee into gifting them a PK.
Delete@victor, come off it, or else you can't be taken seriously. Blatant push? LOL You don't seem to know what a push is. Benatia's hands TOUCH Vazquez's back briefly and very lightly. A touch is not a push. In football, as opposed to basketball, a touch is allowed. Again, Oliver did a very good job until injury time, when he showed his inexperience in CL knockout stage. It's a pity indeed but now he has to face the consequences as anyone else would.
DeleteSome people say that it was a penalty,but in that moment where match was coming to an end,you dont whistle that.
ReplyDeleteI dont agree with that.If there's a foul then it's a foul so in my opinion correct decision from Oliver in his biggest career match.
Well, not only Buffon and Agneli, very strong words from other Juventus player and also from Italian public. I visited many sites, on some of them there are questions whether it was a penalty and visitors have opportunity to vote. More than 2/3 of votes say it wasn't penalty.
ReplyDeleteThis penalty will mark Oliver's carrier - no matter he was right or wrong. Whenever he is on the pitch, everyone will recall it.
Online polls should definitely be trusted. Also you said it yourself: the Italian public, Juve fans and players. It’s shocking that they disagree with Oliver.
DeleteNot Italian polls, my friend. Where did you read I wrote that I visited Italian sites? I don't know Italian language, even though I find it as the most beautiful one on the world.
DeleteI did not mention italian sites either. I simply said that online polls are not reliable and are constantly skewed in some way or another.
DeletePerfectly correct decision and if I was Oliver, I would be extremely happy for the remainder of my career if someone remembers me for the guts to make an absolutely correct call in the last of the injury time... That was a clear penalty for me and I firmly stand with Oliver!!
DeleteEveryone has it's own opinion. You should respect it. You stand with Oliver, and for this decision I stand against him! And believe me, millions of people on the world does, too. And I don't think he will be the "same" ref from now on. I wonder when he is going to get another Italian team match to oversee... Will be interesting to follow that.
DeleteI agree that in rest of his career Oliver will be labeled by this decision. Even if it was correct
ReplyDelete'Who's that referee?
DeleteOh, the one knocked out Juve with penalty in injury time'
will be Oliver's name in upcoming years...
But if you can't handle that, then you should not be the referee :)
We can only speak who's guilty for that 'name', Oliver himself or Comitee?
Oliver at a young age has had his Henning Ovrebo / Hansson moment.
DeleteJust one big difference, Ovrebo and Hansson made clear crucial mistakes, Oliver made, at least supportable decision.
DeleteWell. It is far from Overbo moment
DeleteWell, not every referee is strong enough. Remember Anders Frisk, one of the best refs in last 20-25 years? After life threats back in 2005 for excluding Drogba in match against Barcelona, he abandoned refereeing.
DeleteOliver will have tough moments (hopefully not threats), even Collina will back him. This decision will always be on his mind, believe me.
Frisk didn’t really end his career because of that. He was already losing motivation at the time and had already acomplished all dream he could achieve. So that was the final straw.
DeleteNot on Oliver, but I just remark this.
ReplyDeleteThere are two kinds of user on this blog:
A, people who have little interest to analyse the referee or provide constructive and reasonable criticism, only seem to appear when the medial perception is that a referee has a made a mistake, phrase their responses in the most provokative way looking for attention.
B, people who try to analyse the referees from an objective viewpoint, have pleasant and insightful debates, try to provide insight to other users rather than arouse attention as their main goal.
C, there is one other user with one particular idiosyncrasy :-).
Okay there isn't just two :-D
But I hope you understand my words.
Which category do I fall in generally, Mikael? :D
Delete@Soham
DeleteI think you are the C group :D
C) Overly attached and over sensitive MEGA-FAN. ;D
Delete@Sheriff
DeleteIf we had any doubts which category you were in...
@Sheriff Did anybody ask you? Anyway thanks for your views... I know I cause a lot of troubles for you by being a mega fan of one referee... I quit the blog today and I'll never appear again... You can be free from all disturbances now and can have a good time here without tolerating my mega-fan behaviour... Goodbye and I hope you get peace now that I've left :)
DeleteOh come on Soham, I believe that everyone here likes your posts and comments. We don't have to agree on every situation, everyone has it's own view. Blog is the place where people have the opportunity to express different opinions. Please, stay here - you make this blog more interesting, believe me (and those are the words from someone who had different views from yours many times).
DeleteWhat a easy penalty!! ref killed like last year game (Bayern Munchen)..
ReplyDeleteThe referees could’ve killed the game if they called Bayern’s 1-2 offside, which it was, because then the match would’ve finished 1-1 which real advancing either way.
DeleteAnd how many goals Real scored from offside in that match? Not to say anything about RC for Vidal...
DeleteNever had to ask about this before.
ReplyDeleteIs there any way to have access to match report?
I hope so... it is a great transparency exercise from CTA-RFEF to make referee's match report available and would be good if UEFA did the same thing!
DeleteIn the ultra secretive world of Football? Good luck with that. They're of the "we evaluate ourselves and continuously find ourselves to be doing a superb job" mindset. Transparency? That word is unknown in world football.
DeleteReal Madrid - Juventus (Michael Oliver)
ReplyDelete13', 34' - AR2's calls
https://streamable.com/vpq3l
16' - YC for SPA, holding; attempt to play the advantage
https://streamable.com/gg9fc
19' - SPA? No YC issued
https://streamable.com/nfp5f
22' - YC for reckless stamp
https://streamable.com/4d87l
36' - YC for persistent infringement
https://streamable.com/djpci
41' - penalty incident
https://streamable.com/nfppj
44' - penalty incident (pushing)
https://streamable.com/uwe3l
60' - goal; GK controlling the ball?
Deletehttps://streamable.com/odm1s
73' - YC for reckless tackle
https://streamable.com/jdpwf
87' - penalty incident
https://streamable.com/ur9fj
90' - penalty, SPA vs DOGSO, attack on the referee
https://streamable.com/y3f0o
OT :
ReplyDeleteOne small thank you note to some of my most respected blogger friends... To all the wonderful people in this blog like Chefren, Mikael, Ray, Stake, Phillip, George, DrMr, victor plus many others too... You all have definitely helped me grow my passion in refereeing more by objective discussions of refereeing situations in matches... I thank you all for accepting me here like one of your very own, supporting me and helping to learn new things on refereeing all time and expand my knowledge while on this blog... Thanks to Teo for his kind words above too... Now to all those people like Sheriff and so on who don't like me and always personally attack me presumably because I'm a fan of one particular referee, I want to say sorry for disturbing you with my so-called uncessary comments about my favourite referee... Now with my exit I hope you get much more peace when you don't need to tolerate a fanboy like me... I wish everyone happy times here and I hope this blog can grow bigger and bigger... I specially thank Chefren, Mikael and Ray once again for having a big impact in my passion towards refereeing... I wish all the happiness for your future to all my fellow bloggers and thank you to all for having tolerated me for all these months... With this, I blow my final whistle :) Sorry for using up one valuable comment space in an active discussion for this long, off-topic post :)
Soham, if I took seriously all the negative but nonsensical comments directed at me on my Twitter account (even from the president of Polish FA), I would have been more disabled than I am currently. For so many years I write about refereeing, I learned that in the refereeing world, you have to be very hardy, reading or hearing something related to your person.
DeleteIt's your decision, of course, but maybe a too quick one? Think about it :)
And thanks for mentioning me as a 'wonderful man' ;)
Regards and stay with us!
Definitely more than nice words by Ray, I have really appreciated it. Of course, I agree. Soham, I invite you to change idea.
DeletePlease Soham stay, I am not here for a long time but i would definitely miss your opinion and presence.
DeleteAnd who will make jokes with the reputed Alberto :D:D
I subscribe everything Ray said. If I remember correctly, Soham, you are still very young, and I think it is that youth what makes you decide this so quickly. But you have to remember something: deciding something in a rush and because of an argument is not the best approach, as you are usually going to repent that decision. It is better to stop a few days, think carefully about it, and then make your decision. In refereeing terms, it is your point for improvement there, and that is achieved through experience.
DeleteAs Ray said, you don't have to pay attention to negative comments directed to you except those you can make profit of to learn. Besides, I can't remember a comment of yours removed by Chefren in a long time. However, other users you mention have had their comments deleted regularly and were kindly invited to leave the 3rd team blog after people got fed up of them. Are you really going to leave a place you like and enjoy and where most people want you to be (and most significantly, the owner) because of people whose only intention is to hurt other people's feelings? You should not, and that's why I also ask you to reconsider your decision.
On the Internet, there is a sentence that describes those people and the relation we have to have with them quite nicely: "don't feed the troll".
I've decided I won't leave for those people who insult or hurt me but rather I'll will stay for all the people who support and love me here... I thank you all Ray, Mikael, Chefren, Nathan, George and Osborne :)
DeleteThank you Soham!
DeleteJust one question for you:
If people like you leave the blog, and 'some other' stay, how this blog will look like?
I'm not speaking about bad and good visitors, never.
I'm speaking about people with constructive analyses of refereeing and other not so constructive...
I appreciate your thoughts :) Thank you :)
DeleteI'm asking if Oliver watched the 1st leg between Juventus and Real. In that game Cakir:
ReplyDelete- denied a penalty for Juventus following a handball of Casemiro (min 44). It was clear for everyone on the stadium (including Casemiro) what Chiellini will do. You can't say the ball hit Casemiro's hand unexpectedly...
- denied a 100 % penalty for Juventus following a foul of Carvajal against Cuadrado in LAST SECOND OF THE GAME (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbJufaJdaog)
- first card of Dybala (for simulation) was awarded only AFTER protests of Real's players (esspecially Casemiro). His initial decision was "play-on". With a few seconds delay (only after protests) he whistled indirect free-kick for simulation and yellow card
- no clear yellow cards for Kroos (1st half if I remember well) and Modric (~ 57:20).
With all these things in mind to give a dubious penalty for Real in 93th minute of the second leg is lack of common sense....
PS: I was on the stadium at Juventus- Real. I didn't want to write about Cakir (I saw that some of you gave him 8,4-8,5) but, after 2nd leg, I can say his performance was decisive for qualification of Real.
I had a very good opinion about Cakir. At Torino he dissapointed me a lot:
- lack of personality: he whistled some fouls with obvious delay, only after complaints of players or spectators
- fear to take important decisions: his attitude from last second of the game is very edifying, probative (he saw very well the foul on Cuadrado but preferred to turn around and whistle the end of the game). He tried to protect himself by non-taking some important decisions....
handball of Casemiro is never penalty.
DeleteCasemiro never a penalty and Real was denied a clear penalty in that game for elbow in the face.
DeleteI see lots of similarities between this situation and the penalty in Barcelona-PSG. Not only because of the last-minute decision, but also because in both cases the live perception suggests a penalty more than the replays. However, as every decision is rarely black or white, I would say that Aytekin's penalty situation was more play on than penalty, whereas on this one I would tend more on whistling the foul. The episode had an incredible effect on Aytekin (I still don't understand how a referee can be so penalised for such a decision, which was all but scandal), let's see what it will have on Oliver.
ReplyDeleteI must also say I am embarrassed by the reaction of Juventus players, fans, media, I am shocked that everyone talks about Oliver, when they should be talking about how poor and inconsiderate Benatia's attempt to play the ball from behind was.
I have heard words such as
"This man even allows himself to send off one of the legends of football, he wants to be the protagonist of this night" (national radio)
"This might even be a penalty, but not in the 94th minute of a CL quarterfinal" (Eurosport Italy)
Rather unprofessional and incompetent remarks, as you can see...
@Soham: come on, the blog won't be any better without you, please stay. You might want to reflect on how you could get more acceptance on the blog, maybe trying to limit the comments on Kuipers to a minimum, or leaving more room for uncertainty in certain judgements (e.g. when you say "Oliver is miles ahead of Taylor" or "Kassai's career is over", I think these are too radical comments to be realistic, even though they are your legitimate subjective opinion).
But that is no reason to leave us. Moreover, your passion is too strong to just give up the blog like that, I am sure you won't ;)
As for
@Sheriff Castrilli, I have a question and there is no criticism in my question, but a question that I think nobody made you is, what would be an example of referee that you like? We all know the kind of refereeing that you advocate for, but you rarely make any positive comment on referees, so I would like to understand.
Would it be more like an Aguilar (many many cards and rather strict foul detection), or Ben Williams (rather strict approach according to the LOTG), or Marco Rodriguez? Or, going back in the past, Arturo Brizio Carter? Don't misunderstand me, I respect these referees (btw I think Williams was one of the positive surprises at 2014 WC), but I'd like to understand...
I thank you for some very good advice :)
DeleteBtw, did anyone see Collum last night? Good performance?
ReplyDeletenot the best performance... to lenient
DeleteI found it today. The replay of penalty incident in the last minute of the Juventus - Real Madrid first leg
ReplyDeletehttps://streamable.com/d0ko8
The shot has been already taken, the attacker wouldn't have reached the ball, the foul is careless, so according to unwritten instructions, Çakır was right allowing play to continue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbJufaJdaog
DeleteIt's superfoul. It's a pitty that someone who has some pretentions can say that it's not penalty....
Not penalty. One great gift of Oliver.
ReplyDeleteI was waiting for this one :D:D
DeleteBayern - Sevilla (William Collum)
ReplyDelete02' - SPA vs DOGSO
https://streamable.com/0gguk
10' - advantage and YC for stamp
https://streamable.com/4uo5q
15' - handling in the penalty area
https://streamable.com/p0bi7
48' - penalty incident
https://streamable.com/cx0u8
52' - management
https://streamable.com/ufwuf
55' - management
https://streamable.com/q8prt
75' - potential 2nd YC to Nzonzi
https://streamable.com/o6uo3
90' - reckless vs SFP; advantage
https://streamable.com/oad1l
Thanks, nearly all the decisions are good/supportable, I think.
DeleteIn 90' the advantage was probably not the best choice, FO helped him well there. Maybe there was even a possible foul against Robben in the penalty area?
In general, I agree with Patrick above that he allowed to much physical play and hard challenges. He did not manage to reduce that during the game.
But the big question on his performance is, whether no RC in 2' will be considered as crucial mistake or not.
After having read all the comments, I will write my opinion, sorry if the post will result long.
ReplyDeleteI start from the appointment: nobody expected Oliver in Madrid for this game. About the choice by committee, I think that they thought in a way the clash had been already decided by first leg score. Indeed, it was difficult to think that Juventus would have scored 3 goals while Real Madrid not even one. So, in the "worst" of the hypothesis, Oliver would have faced some challenging moments, but nothing more. The game was totally different and Juventus managed an incredible comeback until the last minutes.
Until that moment, Oliver had been quite good in an unexpected challenging game. Then, there was this incident. Oliver whistled the penalty without waiting for AAR (Atkinson) advice, I think.
Penalty is a fully supportable decision. One can say it is not a 100% clear call, but for sure not a wrong one, VAR would have supported it. Benatia attempt to play the ball by putting that leg was for sure reckless, before the ball, he hit the opponent. A penalty you can whistle. So, under this point of view, we must back the referee, he had the perception of a clear foul and he whistled. I disagree with some opinions I have read here and there, about the "opportunity" to whistle only in certain situations and not when it can be crucial. If Oliver had the perception of a clear foul and therefore penalty, he had to whistle it, in any minute of the game. 20', 45', 67', 90'+5 and so on. Crucial or not, is not important. Refereeing is refereeing, a referee should not look at the interests of the teams. He is there to take decisions according to his discretion and his experience.
For this reason, I was more than shocked by Buffon words against the English referee. I would like to answer, by quoting: "a referee is not there to destroy or to allow your dreams, a referee is there to make his job and you have to accept him in any case". This sentence was written by an Italian journalist.
The same Buffon until a few time ago was always in favor of referees, and he stated: "if you talk about referee, you want to justify a failure, that's not a good culture". So, now, did you change idea?
Last but not least, it will be interesting to see what will happen with Oliver. For a long time, I guess, he wont be allowed to handle Juventus again, and I'm really sorry. Difficult also to see him again with Italian teams. A pity. Under this point of view, it would have been better if this incident had happened to an "old" referee, close to retirement, without any interest about the future. But surely the young English, without any fault, has been now put in such trouble. Hope he will recover, but what we should blame is the missing sport culture, even more here in Italy, we have many journalists and media ready only to make polemics and stir up the fire. Now the target is Collina, but I strongly disagree. Maybe Oliver appointment was a bit risky, in the meaning that he got this game too early, but it was made and it must be respected.
Just like Cakir has never been able to referee a Manchester United game ever since 2013 :) But who cares, the kind of other teams he gets on a regular basis more than makes up for it... I hope same happens with Oliver, he can become a name of many big games now after yesterday's good performance!! Plus I hope Roma or Napoli won't have problems in accepting him? Also if the Committee makes a strong statement by appointing him to a Juventus soon, Juventus will have no choice and I think Committee needs to make such strong statements and more so when the referee has delivered a near-faultless performance in a very, very challenging game!!
DeleteChefren, for you every decision against Juventus is supportable:
Delete- not handball at Casemiro is supportable
- no foul on Cuadrado in 1st leg is supportable
- foul of Benatia is supportable
There are two options:
- in Italy there are 2 kinds of supporters: the ones who love Juve and the ones who hate Juve. Problably you belong to 2nd class...
- I'm asking myself very seriously if you are someone from Collina's entourage (I'm preety sure this blog is allowed to exist by UEFA referee commitee). It's obviously from your comments that you don't want to bother Collina and referee committee.
@Petschovschi - Seems like you're the one supporting Juve.
DeleteWhy you dont say anything about penalty thats not awarded for RMA in first leg for elbow in the face?
Handball for Casemiro is never a penalty.
I will never talk about teams. I talk about refereeing and in the context of refereeing, I share my impressions. If for me a situation is a penalty or a supportable decision, I say that. If you want to count beans in first leg game, you should also add the possible situations in favor of Real Madrid. Otherwise, you are making a speech more based on football teams, than refereeing.
DeleteI must also add that it was shown the handball by Casemiro was outside the box, so? I also stated that for me, the possible penalty for RMA was not penalty. If you don't believe in my words and you think I'm here as football fan, you got everything wrong about what was, what is and what (hopefully!) will be this blog in future! Focus on refereeing, if in my opinion a referee on the pitch takes a supportable decision, he must be backed. Otherwise not.
One thing more. You don't write too often, you write only in certain situations. Of course, you are fully allowed and entitled. But I would have more pleasure to read you more, also when there is something positive to underline about a certain referee. To be honest, it seems to me that you write only when you have the input to highlight something. That would be not good, but I can be wrong.
That's all.
In addition, to answer to your question, I'm not from Collina entourage, and I can criticize a referee for a game, but this time I think that it is not the case for Oliver.
Again and this is my last sentence of my answer: if you don't believe in me, I can't do anything. Feel free to think what you want.
@Petchovski Everyone including Chefren criticised Collina for undestimating certain ties like Barca v PSG and Real v Juve and putting Aytekin and Oliver under the bus... Where do you see him being favourable towards Collina or the RefsCom??
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Delete@Chefren
DeleteI hope you remember that in november 2017 (I was in Italy for Juventus- Barcelona) I invited you to a pizza. You didn't say anything (in last 6 months I saw games in Torino, Milano, Roma and Napoli, I think a meeting with you would have been possible).
About possible penalty for Real madrid in 1st leg. I was on the stadium, I didn't see a penalty there. At home, in Romania, I searched some re-plays. I didn't find a proper re-play (esspecially the one behind the goal). Based on what I saw in the stadium and the available re-plays I can't say it was penalty.
About Casemiro's handball:
- it was inside the area
- Casemiro is aware that Chiellini will try a header to Higuain.
- for this reason he ran in the direction of Chiellini (initially distance from Chiellini and casemiro was at least 10 m)
- when Casemiro arrived behind Chiellini he jumped in order to block the ball
- hand of Casemiro is not a moment attached to his body
- more than that Casemiro is moving his hand AFTER Chiellini's header. The angle between arm/forearm of Casemiro is 90 degrees when Chiellini kicked the ball and 180 degrees in the moment when ball touched Casemiro's hand.
Regarding this handball (and others like this) I hope you hear what Rizzoli said sunday evening at Sky (with Caressa, Mauro, Bergomi, Del Piero). When a defender try (voluntarily) to stop a cross or shot with his body we can't talk anymore about non-voluntar action in case of a handball....
The Casemiro incident is never a penalty IMO... Cakir's upcoming appointments will tell us if the decision is assessed as correct or not!!
DeleteYou said very well: "IMO" ...
DeleteYou are fully entitled to think that it was penalty on Casemiro, I don't want to change your idea about that, I just read that it was outside and it was shown in a TV, now I don't remember it exactly. But this is not important.
DeleteI really would like to read more trust by yourself in my person, I try to do my best here with the blog, sometimes I can be wrong, sometimes right. But, and that's the point, I just analyze referees performance.
About the invite, maybe a day we will meet, I don't know :)
@petchovski Whatever I write it's always generally IMO... I just share my thoughts and my views and I never just force it on others like you're trying to do since yesterday :)
DeleteHe must be so sad that Juve went out so he writes everything about Juve and not saying anything about RMa LMAO
DeleteFor less Manuel Gräfe was postponed by Collina.
ReplyDeletePostponed? What do you mean here?
Deletehttps://en.as.com/en/2018/04/11/football/1523480942_192032.html?omnil=resrelrecomv
ReplyDeleteAnd you belive in media ? Better try to get answers from former TOP referees.
DeleteIs the opinion of former referee Eduardo Iturralde Gonzalez
DeleteNo explanations given, nothing... We doesn't mention about the kick near chest area... Among TOP international referee, Graham Poll has said Oliver has made the "absolutely correct decision" with some good explanation!!
DeleteHe is SPANISH. Not English (as Poll) neither Italian.
DeleteWhy does the nationality matter in an objective discussion?
DeleteThe poll has already 165 votes: 66% of responders believe it wasn't a clear penalty (including those 16% who didn't see penalty at all).
DeleteLive I thought it was a penalty. After I watched a huge number of re-plays (some of them with slow-motion and zoom at italian TV) I have huge doubts about penalty. I would say more "no penalty". I can't blame Oliver too much. Probable his perception was "clear penalty".
After I saw the re-plays (and having in mind the much more clearer penalty not-given for Juve in last second of 1st leg) I can say a proper decision would be "no penalty".
Clear penalty for me anyway... Unfortunately nobody is interested in the perception of scandal that you're trying to give... Had Ovidiu Hategan be appointed in Madrid you have got no problems, I'm pretty sure!!
DeleteOne question for Soham: you say it was clear penalty. Ok, it's your opinion. But if this (more or less) soft contact Benatia/Vazquez is penalty, than the contact Carvajal/Cuadrado from last second of 1st leg is not a penalty ?
DeleteThe qualification was decided by referees: Cakir didn't whistle a clear penalty for Juve in last minute of 1st leg, Oliver whistled a not clear penalty (66% responders believe so in Chefren's poll) in last minute of 2nd leg.
Sometime, the history is written by referees...
Yes, 66% think, it was not a clear penalty, but even 84 % think, it was not a wrong penalty - just a matter of data interpretation.
Delete@petchovski I didn't consider the situation so I don't know... Show me a video of that and then I maybe able to share my thoughts!!
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbJufaJdaog
DeleteMaybe a penalty could've been whistled... But as someone said about the unwritten rule... Cakir and AARA weren't interested and Cakir simply turned his back!!
DeleteIt seems these unwritten rules are applicable only in favor of Real Madrid (and spanish teams)...
DeleteI'm not too knowledgeable to comment on such things so I would leave it to you!!
DeleteEspecially in matches such a Webb's 2014 Quarterfinal, Brych's 2015 Quarterfinal and Clattenburg's Final, it felt as if every single decision was given to the Spanish team. What a conspiracy!
DeleteDon't forget Kuipers' 2014 Final, Çakir's 2016 semi-final... Huge conspiracies indeed!! I'm sure Petchovski will agree with this, isn't it??
Deletehttp://www.marca.com/en/football/real-madrid/2018/04/12/5acf356e46163ff2698b45a7.html
ReplyDeleteSurprisingly quite an objective analysis from MARCA on the contrasting opinions of former top level referees in the media, on the penalty decision last night in Madrid.
It's unimaginable how much vile abuse and garbage talks Michael Oliver's wife Lucy is tolerating in Twitter... Some horrendous words which can't even be mentioned here and all these on an official's wife because he had the guts to make a brave and correct call... Really sad and I must say this Italian fanbase of Juventus has been absolutely disgusting!!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteFor me excellent match for Oliver except for the missed second YC to Benatia, I think he has forgotten it after the mass confrontation. For me 8,2 with at least the 2 YC for Benatia, 8,6/8,7 with it.
ReplyDeleteI would like to express my solidarity with Oliver. I think yesterday's media attacks are unjustified and your performance has been excellent. I hope to see Oliver again soon in important matches.
ReplyDeleteI’m one of those who doesn’t write so often on this blog, but I really like the way in which Chefren carries it on. Let me say that sometimes I don’t like the behaviour of some who are here just to sanctify and/or demolish a referee’s performance without arguments. I always try to be objective and even if I am a fan of Roma I can say that Fazio deserved RC as well as Pique did. On Oliver’s performance: that was a clear penalty and he simply whistled it! Stop, that’s it: there’s no “opportunity”. I’d like to highlight the words from Alessandro Del Piero (“I don’t understand the polemics about this clear penalty”) luckily in contrast with the very bad words from Buffon and Agnelli.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteIt seems Michael Oliver won't struggle so much to get acceptance from other Italian teams...
ReplyDelete#ItaliaLovesMichaelOliver would suggest that anyway.
Bravo Michael Oliver! Correct decision and a big call! He did very well to give the penalty and send off Buffon. The reaction from the Italians has been a disgrace with everything from personal attacks on Michael's ability and integrity and even the Juventus president implying that he took a bribe. Disgraceful. Michael's wife, who is also a referee, has now received death threats from Italian fans. UEFA should act and come down hard on all involved!
ReplyDelete