I think Marciniak was better yesterday than Siebert today. Marciniak's error for goal for Chelsea (2-0) its dissapointing. Yesterday everyone negatively assessed the Pole, and today I do not see it in the assessment of Siebert. It is unfair.
After what we saw in this match, I just remembered CAKIR's performance in madrid derby few years ago when he was great and nothing like that happened, + I think committe should thank god because the other team was ENGLISH, focusing playing F.B,we started feeling boring from watching same faces every round.
Trust me Referee contributes to a game ending the way it did today!! And Seibert did, he is way to calm, yes Atletico are a terrible footballing side but some referees put them in check, take Makkelie for example when he referred them against Liverpool, they wanted to begin their terrible tactics and showed an early ref card to keep them in check and the game was well under his control and they couldn’t misbehaving, that is a referee with personality.
Seriously? Stop this commenting because its shame for all of you to attack Siebert. He is a referee and this is difficult game for everyone. Cant blame him.
Don’t be ridiculous, why shouldn’t we?? He contributed to the poor game!!! He was weak, watch Liverpool vs Atletico and see how Makkelie as pro active and put them in check!!
Can blame rosetti though for trowing Siebert under the bus, knowing full well what a carcrash it could become with Sieberts style. Im not saving that refs like Makkelie wouldnt struggle in these matches. However they have more personality/presence which they use when needed. Siebert absolutely lacked that and that was part of why things went out of hand.
I am not blaming Seibert!! He is an excellent referee but today was the day to show why he is the best in Germany, referees should adjust and do technical analysis of different teams they are appointed to and o trust all UEFA referees do after each appointment! Then he should know how the opposition plays and could have been proactive to prevent the scenes of today!! If you see the match report you will think man city where the ones that made the match terrible with the amount of cards man city picked up. He should have done better and Rossetti should have known better.
I agree with your prediction, pretty easy, there are 5 refs for 5 games :) Turpin and Marciniak already got a RMA game in QF so perfect choices for LIV VIL. Orsato obviously in MCI RMA 2nd leg.
Vincic so would end his CL with NINE games: five in group stage, two R16, a QF and a SF. It could be a record.
This is the top of the iceberg!!! You offer to support any referee who blatantly failed to perform by rewarding him with more appointments?!?! Referees'hypocricy knows no limits.
@Mikael: "he needs a break after that." I actually think the opposite, I think ending the season on a bad note for him would be a mistake that would hurt his career (and therefore hurt UEFA refereeing). I think he should get something small and relatively easy, maybe a first-leg semifinal in the Conference League or something like that .
I'm not saying Siebert is too bad, but it's a bit surprising that Atletico Madrid only got 2 yellow and 1 red cards during the match, Felipe deserved the red card before but it would have been better if Savic and Simeone had also kicked out the game, but still such a tough one. was able to get out of the situation without affecting the outcome
Absolutely no doubt that Siebert can improve and must learn from this. There is a time for calm and there is a time for authority, he did not know when to switch.
However, I think a mass confrontation could happen with ANY referee (even Orsato, Makkelie etc.) when Atletico play. Tonight, Felipe was sent off but Simeone and Savic should've gone too. However, I don't think any referee shows them 3 RC's.
Hopefully this will be a wake up call to UEFA that they must do something about their narrow options, and also I hope that Siebert will learn and be more authoritative in future where I am sure he will be given more high profile games.
@Philipp S: And your prediction for the final? Makkelie again? Or do you think that UEFA will speculate to see an all-English or an all-Spanish final and appoint a referee from Spain/England for it? Peter/Vienna
Great performances? Did you watch MAN UTD - Atletico? A disaster. Yesterday Rosetti was his observer, his performance was nothing special. I don't understand why he should be appointed for a SF...
@Peter: Marciniak would be my prediction for the final.
@Orsato: I think, it would be quite risky to include him in the plans right now. At least, if we don't know the details on his injury. If it's guaranteed, that he is fit, he obviously should get a CL SF - I would then say Turpin/Orsato for LIV-VIL.
I did watch MUN-ATM and I thought Vincic was really good.
You are perhaps forgetting the level of difficulty that comes with Atletico - no referee is going to look perfect in those games. If you have any questions about Vincic, compare MUN-ATM to Siebert's ATM-MCI today.
I think Taylor could be chosen for EL final, obviouvsly if english teams will be out. He deserves that match, he won't get CL final also because of great performances by english teams.
Alternatively, Marciniak appointed for EL and Taylor for UCL... difficult to predict
Atletico are unrefereeable. UEFA guidance to allow soft fouls to play on does not work in those situations. It needed very single foul whistled to retain control but then uefa wouldn’t like that. Within his powers, I’m not sure siebert could have done any more. Well done to Zwayer for being active in the mass confrontation. Disappointed with Fritz on VAR for missing a clear head but by Savic on Sterling during the mass confrontation and should have recommended OFR for violent conduct. Overall tough night for officials but was always going to be the case. I don’t think siebert will be harmed by tonight but he will need a rest and I think he will be in EL SF rather than CL SF in my opinion.
the Atletico Madrid players and coach, aren't the same in the away matchs. Can't compare the match in Liverpool with this one today. Someone can name a clear error from Siebert? for the one of you that can see throw paralel universe, and comment that Orsato, Makkelie, Turpin ecc handle the match in a better way ... and there are other comments thay see in Zwayer, a good menagment. Where? Who? Guardiola was on the pitch 2-3 times, Simeone more than 3, the staffs where i the technical are for the last 20 minutes. And the Felipe RC, was a AR suggestion, ot Zwayer.
In any case, the situations are in no way comparable... We have to consider the atmosphere, the frustration of Atletico and its aggressive style. So difficult to manage a so tight match...
Weak managment (Siebert) for me is worse than human mistake (Marciniak). Human mistake is a single. Managment is part of many components. I'm a referee, and I know' what I'm writing. I'm my opiniom: Siebert "lost" this match on 13' Siebert was not prepared for this match.
Zwayer wasn’t good at all. Weak management of the benches. Because of this the behaviour of the coaches were bad and this influenced the players and crowd. He was only standing and watching but not acting!
I was quite surprised by all the Zwayer praises in the match thread, too. He failed to control ATL bench terribly, resulting in a laughable yellow card for Simeone in stoppage time, followed by two warnings. One issued by Zwayer for applauding ironically and one issued by Siebert for leaving the technical area. At this point of the game, you should either have proceeded further in the protocol, or skip some steps going for a fast yellow-red/straight red card.
Marcianiak miss a clear goal kick yesterday, but is sth that can happen, and we know it. So we congrarulate him, because it was not easy. So why isn't tha Siebert game tonight, the same thing? I can't see a singel error from him in the match!
There's a question I'm asking myself, do you think that UEFA's planning for SF went wrong? Because I think they thought that Bayern would go through and face LIV in the SF and there they would put Del Cerro Grande either in the first leg or in the second leg.
Why do I believe this? Because according to Spanish media DCG is the favorite to go to Qatar, and they did not designate him in 4th thinking that he would get a semifinal, and Villarreal took it away.
Possible that DCG or Lahoz would have got LIV-BAY 1st leg so plans may change a bit.
However, although we must not underestimate Villarreal because they have incredibly knocked out Juventus and Bayern, I think the committee will expect a comfortable win for Liverpool and so won't panic too much. I expect Kovacs now.
I hope Lahoz is the one chosen for Qatar. He is a great ref who, honestly, was not on very good form when Russia came around. Now, he is in maybe the best form of his career, so it would be sad if his World Cup experience was only 2018.
I believe that the chosen one will be Gil Manzano. They are training him for the big event in Qatar. A clear example was the call to the Copa America 2021.
Besides Gil has 1 U20 World Cup in 2019, where according to what I have read he did an excellent performance, allowing him to whistle the match for 3rd place.
But if they are chosen for experience, Mateu Lahoz would already have his ticket to Qatar.
Though I wouldn't mind seeing DCG blow its whistle in Doha.
I think the Copa America appointment was more of a consolation prize for being the third Spanish referee behind DCG and Lahoz; you can't take 3 Spanish referees to a single tournament so they gave him the Copa America exchange spot instead.
Gil Manzano’s U20 WC was definitely not excellent. He struggled in his Hispanic group stage clash involving Honduras, gave a decisive wrong penalty in his R16 game for an alleged handling, and completely lost control of the third place playoff in a very poor performance (comparable to Siebert last night actually). If you watched the games, then you wouldn’t be calling the Spaniard’s tournament excellent. :)
Çakır's business is complicated and TFF can't assign him to the matches, and he still didn't let him manage the match in Switzerland, it's a complete disgrace for Turkey and if the Turkish referee committee doesn't appoint him tomorrow, this season and the world cup book will be completely closed for Çakır.
I think Çakır will continue next year despite everything, because I want to say that the committee will also change after the TFF presidential election in June.
Sorry, but Siebert was way better tgan some suggest here. His obvious mistakes? A missed corner, 4 missed fouls (but many CORRECT play ons after theatralic divers and show acts by both sides) 2 missed YC, a missed RC against Simeones unacceptable behavior, one very good playon decision after a diver in the box including little contact by defender, so correctly no YC, not aby gamechanging mistakes, no corrections by VAR necessary, very good and correct performance by ARs and by Zwayer as 4th official during mass confrontation, very good and correct timemanagement, just a bit weak body language... So... an absolutely acceptable performance in an extremely challenging match. Siebert has not yet learned to adaot his body language to more authority, true, but remember Turpin in his first years: Exactly the same problem. I am not sure that Siebert will be the number 1 of Germany in 4 or 8 years, cause extremely convincing young talents are following (Petersen!!! , Badstuber, and Zwayer is still young, too) but he still has good cards for Qatar and time to learn. But for QL and EL he should be out for this season.
A) This was a very difficult game, especially due to the usual behavior of Atletico.
B) Siebert's stylistic approach to this game wasn't the right approach to take, and he wasn't at his sharpest tonight.
I don't think this match is the end of the world for Siebert; it was below average, but that assessment must be understood within the context of the level of difficulty of the match.
Regarding the appointment of Siebert in the first place, in a normal situation I would say that it was the wrong referee to appoint for this match, because the match didn't suit Siebert's style. However: 1) we all know of how many unforeseen problems UEFA has had with referees and how stretched their availability is right now, and 2) at some point, European referees who intend to go to the World Cup need to be exposed to these sorts of matches. Sometimes people assume that European referees at the World Cup are always the best because they ref in the biggest competitions. But the problem they sometimes have is that there aren't enough European teams who play with a style like what we saw from Atletico today, most teams focus on football. In other areas of the world, referees are exposed more frequently to these very stylistically challenging matches. So I think it is a good thing to expose Siebert to this: better for him to make his mistakes and learn from them now than for it to occur in a big game in Qatar.
I Think a style like ATM's style needs for south american style, Fernando Rapallini or Pitana can handle them easily because they see such behaviour a lot ib South America matches, and It is been clear that south america referees can handle European teams easily but the apposite not.
What they need is strict refereeing and a clear and public statement from UEFA that referees will be much stricter with dissent from all players and staff. It would have a huge effect but they will never do such a thing.
Matthew T perfectly pointed out the main reason of today's performance:
"UEFA guidance to allow soft fouls to play on does not work in those situations. It needed very single foul whistled to retain control but then uefa wouldn’t like that. Within his powers, I’m not sure siebert could have done any more."
EXACTLY!
There is no place to 'use laidback approach' or 'take the backseat' in games involving teams that use 'dirty tactics'. Everybody should know that it is going to be a nightmare in such case. Even more the referees committe should know that.
To few of us who, contrary to UEFA Referees Committee, still try to analyse refereeing matters, it was clear that Siebert's strongest point was his approach - technical accuracy combined with a great ability to slow the games down when it was needed. That worked PERFECTLY at EURO2020!
I dare to say that UEFA's last instructions were most harmful to two referees: Hațegan and Siebert. These instructions to make the games artificially fluent by ignoring many fouls and not showing mandatory yellow cards totally disarmed these two referees. They can't and will never can referee in such way.
Rosetti, when instructing his referees, should have specified that there will be some exceptions (games involving teams like Atlético) when an authoritarian, law-enforcer style will be needed. Apparently, that wasn't the case.
When we add these two factors (disarming referees like Siebert and Hațegan, demanding the instructions to be implemented in such games like today's one) and the appointment together, one could have expect a nightmare already before the game.
I don't want to repeat myself and become a blind critic of Roberto Rosetti (yes, I understand the bad situation with too many departures, injuries, Karasyov and Çakır being out for political reasons) but he REALLY should revise his philosophy that could lead to more performances like those in Rangers FC - SK Slavia Praha, Austria - North Macedonia or Club Atlético de Madrid - Manchester City FC. You can use it in all-English duels but not necessarily in ENGvsESP or ESPvsPSG battles. Not every referee is such manager and leader like Orsato, Marciniak or Mateu Lahoz! One should have keep this in mind, either while making appointments or, even better, while conducting seminar.
Im just thinking that yeah, we said Orsato would be ideal for this match, but also there is one famous name in Turkey that UEFA would not appoint to any match :).
But being great could be dangerous in UEFA! Remember Çakır's FAULTLESS performance in CROESP at EURO2020 after which he was sent home. Sometimes you can be even rewarded for losing control by UEFA! See: Brych's appointments after very poor performance in BELPOR in R16.
Watching ATMMCI today, I remembered Chefren's idea of deliberately letting Siebert fail today ... still I do not think Rosetti would have taken the risk of seeing Siebert as the new rising star of Europe's refs, if Siebert had performed more authorative tonight..
Rosetti definitely set other referees up to fail in the past, but despite of how obviously bad idea this appointment was (for all the reasons that Euro Soccer Ref excellently orated), I'm quite sure that it wasn't made of malintent by UEFA's reffing leader.
A good case-in-point for evoking Hanlon's razor :)
Well at first we have the classic scenario of a ‘hot potato’ game which is deliberately given to a classic type of referee (usually a law-enforcer, not always), where if it goes well, great! But if not, they have no qualms at all with discarding this referee and saving later games for more ‘politically agreeable’ referees. This happened in pretty much every single WC that I covered. Rosetti examples of this would be Del Cerro’s appointment to FRAGER and Hațegan (hope his recovery is going well btw!!) to Atlético vs. Manchester United.
But the classic example is Mateu’s EURO. Remember that in refereeing, the same as in one-party states, personal relationships matter very, very much of course. I am quite sure that Rosetti knew that he was burning the Spaniard out, but kept appointing him anyway. If he wasn’t rejected for PORFRA, then I’m sure Rosetti would have given him BELITA, with the final three appointments remaining exactly the same. It was terrible HR management, unlike Siebert’s brazen pushing, is not explained by Hanlon’s razor.
Seneme giving Cunha the ARGBRA game in last WCQ cycle is another perfect example of actually setting up a referee to fail too.
But the referees should demonstrate their ability to handle "hot potato" matches, so why not appointing them to such games? This is the way to find out what they can referee and what they are not able to handle.
I think we should be focusing more on UEFA and Rosetti rather than Siebert.
Siebert has been elite LESS than a YEAR. UEFA are either trying to make him the next Felix Brych (which he is not) or are setting him up to fail long term.
The fast tracking of these referees can be detrimental in the long run. Siebert is not experienced enough to handle these matches. He lost control of the game today.
ATM-MCI would have been perfect for someone like Cuneyt Cakir. Why a man of his experience and calibre is left out I do not know.
Cakir would have been excellent in this game, he had similar type of game 2017, whn Atlwtico played Real.
Hoe showed cards in 4th and 6th minute, so that setcan example just like his othwr decisions and he had quite 2nd half, all beacuse he established calmness and control during hot and challenging 1st half.
Çakir's situation is the one that really hurts me a lot, an ELITE REFEREE with 2 WC Semifinals is left out of these GREAT matches because of a situation that gets out of his hands?
Besides, let's remember, Çakir has been removed from the final stages of the competitions (UCL, UEL, UECL, EURO) all because of Ceferin. In a SVN-AUT qualifying match for EURO2020 where Ceferin (UEFA PRESIDENT) was observing the match, where Çakir was the referee, and Slovenia (country of the president) was left out of the EURO and he put all the responsibility on Çakir of elimination.
And being the President of UEFA could influence the appointments of Çakir examples?
Before that match Çakir reached the Semifinals of UC, UEL and after that match, for example in the TEMP20-21 he whistled 3 games of GS and 1 of 16. And in TEMP21-22 he only registers 2 group stage games.
And another CLEAR EXAMPLE of this was in the EURO, where Çakir made an IMPECCABLE performance in CRO-ESP and DESERVED THE FINAL, and he was sent home right after the match.
They do this to one of the most experienced referees in the world. It's not fair Coincidence? I do not think so.
About the predictions for semifinals, it will be very difficult. I think it can be absolutely true that committee had planned a semifinal for Del Cerro (even if not totally deserved, if you ask me), very likely the one with Bayern, now this isn't possible anymore. But... there is more. Rumors say that Orsato should be back not before the end of April, so this would mean that a possible appointment in CL semifinals is not sure. He will be back after a quite long time without a game. I thin they will do everything to appoint him, but if not possible... well, definitely a big problem. Quite sure to see Turpin in Real - City, while the most flexible game is Liverpool - Villarreal. I think that Marciniak will get another assignment, the third name Vincic, and about the fourth name (if not Orsato), committee could wait for first leg score between Liverpool and Villarreal and making something like Gozubuyuk choice for quarterfinals. More unlikely in semifinals, but still... and in this case there could be some options. I would say that a name like Zwayer, given his experience, is a strong alternative in this regard. To follow, Soareas Dias (but more unlikely).
I agree with your three clear names: Vincic, Marciniak, Turpin are all surefire appointments right now, absolutely guaranteed, given the absence of Cakir, Karasev, Hategan, all English and Spanish referees, etc.
If Orsato is out, the fourth name is really difficult to find, there is no good solution. I suppose, if necessary, I would have to say Kovacs. It would be nice to save this fourth name for a blowout second leg between LIV and VIL, but saving them for that is quite risky - if that match turns out to be more difficult, it will have made more sense to use them in the first leg.
Maybe Cakir's situation can be resolved in time?
Honestly, if no one else becomes available by the time these matches come around, I feel like we could see a repeat of 2016 with referees being appointed to multiple of the final 5 games. Perhaps Vincic or Turpin or Marciniak will have 2 semifinals like Cakir did, or maybe they will give Makkellie a first leg and then use him again in the final (like Clattenburg did). Of course, that plan carries an element of risk itself, in the event of a disaster in the semifinal...
My predictions are these:
MCI-RMA: Vincic LIV-VIL: Marciniak
RMA-MCI: Marciniak (Turpin if LIV-VIL is a blowout) VIL-LIV: Turpin (Kovacs if LIV-VIL is a blowout)
Yes, agree, the new guidelines and laidback approach didn’t help Siebert. But there is more than that. I remember that Orsato and Makkelie didn’t whistle soft fouls in the Real-PSG games as well. There is something else they DID and I didn’t see it yesterday: mark your authority, show personality. Don’t be too passive. If player’s don’t behave: SCREAM. Issue cards for dissents. Issue mandatory yellow cards, even when it is very early in the game.
So yes, I agree that new guidelines didn’t help Siebert, but yesterday was a perfect game to change his style. He should learn to adapt his style, being more versatile. He was too calm and passive. Trying to be at the background at all costs. Same with Turpin in Porto-Atletico. Also too passive and isolated, keeping the cards in his pocket.
Orsato, Makkelie and Marciniak are the only names that could have handled it.
Feeling the game is another aspect. I remember that, for example, Makkelie whistled ALL small fouls in the last 10 minutes of that Real-PSG game. To keep control. That's also something I missed yesterday.
Feeling the game, adapt style and strategy when needed, managing players, keep the benches calm, don't be affraid to mark a stamp (authority), issue mandatory cards. Refereeing is certainly not easy.
There is a reason why Cakir, Kuipers, Brych and Skomina were always appointed to semi-finals, potentially complicated matches, south American clashes, hot atmospheres, etc. I miss them.
If i can join you... i also must add that these tops refs were young and gained experience with tough and hot games.
The step was (too) high for Daniel but no doubt he will learn and developp himself after such a game.
Have a look back with Clément Turpin in 2016 Feyenoord game. he worked hard to developp himself.
Each of us as ref knew complicated games wich educated us.
I wish (and have no doubt) that committee will help Daniel who is up-and-coming top ref. May Bjorn Kuipers and Felix Brych can also help him to develop his management skills.
We benefited from the benevolence of our elders, it is also possible to give credit to Daniel on the one hand for pointing out that this game was very difficult, and on the other hand for making him benefit from the benevolence. You don't become a top referee in a few matches.
We can always discuss whether the appointment was appropriate, but I think it's a good thing to confront him with difficulties and then to help him. This will certainly be done by UEFA.
I do not write i'm absolutely right, it's just my opinion.
In first legs, the committee can appoint some 'un-experienced' refs that had a good season. Some new names at that stage.
Since the abolishment of "away goals", I noticed that in all 1st legs, the intensity is even lower than in previous years. Players behave well, because they have a chance to turn things around in a 2nd leg. The 2nd legs require two very experienced names. Orsato is one of them. Hope he makes it.
Here's two comments from yesterday I'd like to discuss: "Anonymous13 April 2022 at 23:06 Seriously guys, it is as if none if you ever refereed a game. Blaming siebert for the last fifteen minutes is utterly outrageous, he did everything he could to keep an uncontrollable situation under control and kept his calm, so for that alone he should be commended, not criticized.
Reply Replies
Referee 1213 April 2022 at 23:09 I agree with Anonymus here in every single word."
For me, if Siebert had given the YC at 13' for the knock that drew blood on Foden's head, it would have helped prevent all tht was to happen later. Refereeing, like policing, for me has to be preventive. Calling smaller fouls helps prevent larger fouls and giving cards for reckless play helps prevent more reckless play. So Siebert's lax actions earlier made the match more difficult for him later on.
If I am not mistaken, a good while back. There was an individual with the user name of Sheriff who portrayed himself as a by the book referee. And it's been a long time since he's posted a comment. But TBH I can't blame him, because he was talked down to and at times ridiculed for what most of you perceived as his antiquated views. Yet here we find ourselves bashing Rosetti for forcing his modern ways upon his referee's. Something that Sheriff was adamantly against. He made it very clear on multiple occasions that he was disgusted at how the referee's in CONCACAF were forced to officiate by Brian Hall. I remember one of his last posts as having a tone of feeling discouraged and more so defeated to the point of giving up on watching any televised matches. Only for a fellow user to suggest that instead of watching CONCACAF matches, that he watch UEFA matches as they were somehow different. But after watching Seibert, I don't think that Sheriff would see much difference between Seibert and John Pitti in USA-MEX Nations League Final. So maybe he had a point and he was right all along.
If you read this Sheriff, I hope you are well and are still active as a referee. Thank you for being true to the LoTG and never wavering from who you are as a referee. From one referee to another, be well!
Some games demand a very strict (no-nonsense) referee, while for other games it is better to be a bit more lenient and background-minded. It really depends on the football culture, the players, etc. In the country where I live, a referee is not accepted when he is pedantic and authorive, whistles with the LOTG in its hands, losing the big picture.
Basically, this is what most referees nowadays are really LACKING the most: reading the game, being versatile, change their style and strategy when the game demands it.
Just some thoughts: I don't (or rather: refuse to) believe that Siebert was unable to adapt his approach to yesterday's duel. His ability to form detailed plans re. his tactical approach to matches, including the use of disciplinary measures, is something I've always admired when seeing him refereeing. Actually, he said himself, multiple times, that his refereeing is about reading the game and adjusting his tools accurately - but he uses tactical approach for that (impressively well!) and NOT so much charisma, body language, voice; it doesn't NEED these things to be a great referee when you excel using tactic adjustments like Siebert. I'm certain that Siebert analysed Atletico's previous matches detailedy (that's needed when your refereeing philosophy is to adjust your tactical use of measures to the teams more than general charisma and player contact) and I don't and won't believe that he NOT realized that a strict use of foul recognition and bookings was in need there. Obviously, there is a problem when you're literally NOT ALLOWED to use your essential measures adequately. And as Siebert obviously doesn't want to neglect the guidelines of his boss when refereeing a high-pressure match like yesterday's, his failure was not really unexpectable. Going along with that, I'm certain Siebert knew himself that a reckless action like the one in13' by an Atletico player definetly screamed to be sanctioned with a yellow card. But Rosetti's guidelines to allow a lot physical play contradicted this choice here - in fact, a strict (and for UEFA: boring) approach in this media-covered duel would destroy the referee picture the commitee tried to implement. I'm sorry for you, Mr. Siebert.
On a wider note: I don't see the point in commenting on referee's performances anymore tbh because I can't criticise a ref for a 'bad' performance when he is disarmed and has no chance to adequately use his tools.
Agree that Siebert looked disarmed. Are we sure that this was his strategy because Rosetti wanted him to do so? Orders from the chef?
I’m not completely sure, because Orsato and Makkelie had a very different disciplinary approach when they officiated PSG and/or Atletico recently. They did issue early YC’s, applied a stricter disciplinary line... How do we clarify that?
I certainly see what you mean with Makkelie's and Orsato's great performances in PSG-RMA/... but I don't really think we can compare Siebert's QF with them. My observation is that nearly no referee in the upper Elite pool is as dependend on tactical approach and detailed adjustment as Siebert is (maybe Hategan as well; I wish a speedy recovery!) - ESR explained that in previous comments. Makkelie and Orsato, as examples, but also Marciniak, who has a good season, etc. can compensate the guidelines with natural authority, charisma, player contact and these 'non-tactical' skills. That's why they are able to succeed in hot clashes even though their disciplinary line is not sooo strict (stricter than usual of course) over all.
If Orsato is not recovered for Semi-Finals, could we see a potential CL SF appointment followed then by CL/EL final for someone such as Makkelie or Marciniak, because there are not 4 'obvious' names for the SF's without Orsato. Ordinarily, one would think that both final referees would now be kept back but this may not be possible?
I don't think the committee is going to appoint Marciniak to SF from CL. Because if they put him in RMA-MCI I don't think it's possible, because he blew the RMA in 4th and in VIL-LIV he blew the LIV 2 TIMES IN THE SEASON (LIV-MIL / LIV-INT) I don't think the committee put it a 3rd time. I think they will put it in a Conference SF and from there to the UEL final.
I don't think so either, but there may be no choice. For unless they double-appoint one of the most experienced referees, then by process of elimination we must see *someone* who is inexperienced on one of the four semifinal matches.
@ Chefren: What are your expectations about Siebert's future appointments - and have the results of your poll (thanks for that - very interesting!) any influence on your thoughts about Siebert?
After the game in Madrid, I think it will be unlikely to see Siebert again this season, we must also add that he got three games in KO stage and this could be enough. However, I think in normal conditions for sure he could have got a semifinal in Europa League, now with German teams impossible, so I think he will be out. The results of the poll are indeed interesting, the winning option is "performance with important areas for improvement, including missing disciplinary actions". One can agree, since there weren't crucial mistakes, this assessment can inded describe exactly the display by the German. However, in terms of control, especially in the last minutes of the game, the lack of a good disciplinary management caused some effects that made the perception of the performance even worse than it really was. It is true that the German needs to make further experience, and I'm sure he will learn from this game, but for me a performance still below expectations, because he should have changed his style. Not a game for him in the moment he got the assignment. However, if you are asking about the future of Siebert, I don't think it was a dramatic chapter of his international careeer, but surely the most difficult, and an occasion for trying to be different in future in such games.
Thank you for your substantial answer! I agree ... But what I was asking myself these days follwoing the discussions here: Is it really the case that Rosetti "disarmed" the refs? How could he do that? As soon as the ref enters the pitch, he is in charge and has to do the best to his abilities to enforce the rules. Isn't it so that in the end his performance will be measured in this respect? Is it really possible, that an elite ref will be blamed (by Rosetti) for example - let's say - sending coaches off who leave the technical zone all throughout the game? This is something Siebert and Zwayer failed to execute. And why should Rosetti be happy seeing Simeone's behavior?
I think Marciniak was better yesterday than Siebert today. Marciniak's error for goal for Chelsea (2-0) its dissapointing. Yesterday everyone negatively assessed the Pole, and today I do not see it in the assessment of Siebert. It is unfair.
ReplyDeleteAfter what we saw in this match, I just remembered CAKIR's performance in madrid derby few years ago when he was great and nothing like that happened, + I think committe should thank god because the other team was ENGLISH, focusing playing F.B,we started feeling boring from watching same faces every round.
ReplyDeleteTrust me Referee contributes to a game ending the way it did today!! And Seibert did, he is way to calm, yes Atletico are a terrible footballing side but some referees put them in check, take Makkelie for example when he referred them against Liverpool, they wanted to begin their terrible tactics and showed an early ref card to keep them in check and the game was well under his control and they couldn’t misbehaving, that is a referee with personality.
ReplyDeleteRed*
DeleteSeriously? Stop this commenting because its shame for all of you to attack Siebert. He is a referee and this is difficult game for everyone. Cant blame him.
ReplyDeleteDon’t be ridiculous, why shouldn’t we?? He contributed to the poor game!!! He was weak, watch Liverpool vs Atletico and see how Makkelie as pro active and put them in check!!
DeleteCan blame rosetti though for trowing Siebert under the bus, knowing full well what a carcrash it could become with Sieberts style. Im not saving that refs like Makkelie wouldnt struggle in these matches. However they have more personality/presence which they use when needed. Siebert absolutely lacked that and that was part of why things went out of hand.
DeleteI am not blaming Seibert!! He is an excellent referee but today was the day to show why he is the best in Germany, referees should adjust and do technical analysis of different teams they are appointed to and o trust all UEFA referees do after each appointment! Then he should know how the opposition plays and could have been proactive to prevent the scenes of today!! If you see the match report you will think man city where the ones that made the match terrible with the amount of cards man city picked up. He should have done better and Rossetti should have known better.
DeletePositive match by Siebert. Calm, quiet and confident. Good technical decisions, he deserved this appointment
ReplyDeleteMr, Rosetti is one calamity
Deletecan't agree more than the BGRef's comment
ReplyDeleteVery positive by Gözübüyük !
ReplyDeleteEasy game, not challenging at all.
DeleteI think Turpin/Marciniaks for Liv-Vill and Vincic/Orsato for City-Madrid must be the four referees in the Semi-Finals. Makkelie for the final.
ReplyDeleteI also think that Siebert should have a semifinal match in UECL. I think that he needs now support by the comitee.
I agree with your prediction, pretty easy, there are 5 refs for 5 games :) Turpin and Marciniak already got a RMA game in QF so perfect choices for LIV VIL. Orsato obviously in MCI RMA 2nd leg.
DeleteVincic so would end his CL with NINE games: five in group stage, two R16, a QF and a SF. It could be a record.
This is the top of the iceberg!!! You offer to support any referee who blatantly failed to perform by rewarding him with more appointments?!?! Referees'hypocricy knows no limits.
Delete@Mikael: "he needs a break after that."
ReplyDeleteI actually think the opposite, I think ending the season on a bad note for him would be a mistake that would hurt his career (and therefore hurt UEFA refereeing). I think he should get something small and relatively easy, maybe a first-leg semifinal in the Conference League or something like that .
I'm not saying Siebert is too bad, but it's a bit surprising that Atletico Madrid only got 2 yellow and 1 red cards during the match, Felipe deserved the red card before but it would have been better if Savic and Simeone had also kicked out the game, but still such a tough one. was able to get out of the situation without affecting the outcome
ReplyDeleteGuys, do you think that after this performance, Siebert's position in Qatar is at risk?
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely not
DeleteIs Zwayer no chance?
DeleteI am 99% that Zwayer is going as VAR for Qatar.
DeleteAbsolutely no doubt that Siebert can improve and must learn from this. There is a time for calm and there is a time for authority, he did not know when to switch.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I think a mass confrontation could happen with ANY referee (even Orsato, Makkelie etc.) when Atletico play. Tonight, Felipe was sent off but Simeone and Savic should've gone too. However, I don't think any referee shows them 3 RC's.
Hopefully this will be a wake up call to UEFA that they must do something about their narrow options, and also I hope that Siebert will learn and be more authoritative in future where I am sure he will be given more high profile games.
My prediction for semifinals:
ReplyDeleteLIV-VIL
1° Kovacs (ROU)
2° Orsato (ITA)
MCI-RMA
1° Vincic (SVN)
2° Turpin (FRA)
What do you think?
My SF predictions are
DeleteManCity - Real: Vincic / Makkelie
Liverpool - Villareal: Kovacs / Turpin
Orsato, if recovered, should be appointed to the most important match, the second leg of MCI RMA, while for the first leg I'd like to see Kovacs.
DeleteI think VIllarreal Liverpool is more suitable for Turpin and Marciniak, who have already officiated a QF with RMA.
As concerns Vincic, also considering his recent performances, I think he doesn't deserve another CL match this year.
What? Vincic's performances have been great! I would be very surprised not to see him in a semifinal.
DeleteI think Makkelie is being saved for the final.
@Philipp S:
DeleteAnd your prediction for the final? Makkelie again? Or do you think that UEFA will speculate to see an all-English or an all-Spanish final and appoint a referee from Spain/England for it?
Peter/Vienna
Great performances? Did you watch MAN UTD - Atletico? A disaster. Yesterday Rosetti was his observer, his performance was nothing special. I don't understand why he should be appointed for a SF...
Delete@Peter: Marciniak would be my prediction for the final.
Delete@Orsato: I think, it would be quite risky to include him in the plans right now. At least, if we don't know the details on his injury. If it's guaranteed, that he is fit, he obviously should get a CL SF - I would then say Turpin/Orsato for LIV-VIL.
I did watch MUN-ATM and I thought Vincic was really good.
DeleteYou are perhaps forgetting the level of difficulty that comes with Atletico - no referee is going to look perfect in those games. If you have any questions about Vincic, compare MUN-ATM to Siebert's ATM-MCI today.
I also think Vincic was poor in MUN-ATM, a big dissapointed. Not saw him Tuesday.
DeleteMy predictions for SF:
ReplyDeleteFirst leg:
Liverpool Villarreal Marciniak
Real Madrid Manchester City Kovacs
Second leg:
Villarreal Liverpool Turpin
Manchester City Real Madrid Orsato (if recovered)
For me:
DeleteLIV-VIL:
#1 Kovacs (ROU)
#2 Vincic (SVN)
MCI-RMA:
#1 Turpin (FRA)
#2 Orsato (ITA)
(Makkelie kept for CL final)
(Marciniak kept for EL final)
ECL a bit harder to predict
Your preferences are really nice, according to the exact matches, anonymous :)
DeleteI agree in CL and EL
DeleteAnd in ECL is between Jovanovic, Taylor.
I think Taylor could be chosen for EL final, obviouvsly if english teams will be out. He deserves that match, he won't get CL final also because of great performances by english teams.
DeleteAlternatively, Marciniak appointed for EL and Taylor for UCL... difficult to predict
Atletico are unrefereeable. UEFA guidance to allow soft fouls to play on does not work in those situations. It needed very single foul whistled to retain control but then uefa wouldn’t like that. Within his powers, I’m not sure siebert could have done any more.
ReplyDeleteWell done to Zwayer for being active in the mass confrontation.
Disappointed with Fritz on VAR for missing a clear head but by Savic on Sterling during the mass confrontation and should have recommended OFR for violent conduct.
Overall tough night for officials but was always going to be the case. I don’t think siebert will be harmed by tonight but he will need a rest and I think he will be in EL SF rather than CL SF in my opinion.
the Atletico Madrid players and coach, aren't the same in the away matchs.
ReplyDeleteCan't compare the match in Liverpool with this one today.
Someone can name a clear error from Siebert?
for the one of you that can see throw paralel universe, and comment that Orsato, Makkelie, Turpin ecc handle the match in a better way ...
and there are other comments thay see in Zwayer, a good menagment. Where? Who? Guardiola was on the pitch 2-3 times, Simeone more than 3, the staffs where i the technical are for the last 20 minutes.
And the Felipe RC, was a AR suggestion, ot Zwayer.
Do you remember Marciniak's mass confrontation in 95'? He wasn't her...and Siebert? That's the difference.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, the situations are in no way comparable... We have to consider the atmosphere, the frustration of Atletico and its aggressive style. So difficult to manage a so tight match...
DeleteWeak managment (Siebert) for me is worse than human mistake (Marciniak). Human mistake is a single. Managment is part of many components. I'm a referee, and I know' what I'm writing. I'm my opiniom: Siebert "lost" this match on 13' Siebert was not prepared for this match.
DeleteZwayer wasn’t good at all. Weak management of the benches. Because of this the behaviour of the coaches were bad and this influenced the players and crowd. He was only standing and watching but not acting!
ReplyDeleteI was quite surprised by all the Zwayer praises in the match thread, too. He failed to control ATL bench terribly, resulting in a laughable yellow card for Simeone in stoppage time, followed by two warnings. One issued by Zwayer for applauding ironically and one issued by Siebert for leaving the technical area. At this point of the game, you should either have proceeded further in the protocol, or skip some steps going for a fast yellow-red/straight red card.
DeleteMarcianiak miss a clear goal kick yesterday, but is sth that can happen, and we know it. So we congrarulate him, because it was not easy.
ReplyDeleteSo why isn't tha Siebert game tonight, the same thing? I can't see a singel error from him in the match!
Guys, changing the subject.
ReplyDeleteThere's a question I'm asking myself, do you think that UEFA's planning for SF went wrong?
Because I think they thought that Bayern would go through and face LIV in the SF and there they would put Del Cerro Grande either in the first leg or in the second leg.
Why do I believe this?
Because according to Spanish media DCG is the favorite to go to Qatar, and they did not designate him in 4th thinking that he would get a semifinal, and Villarreal took it away.
Possible that DCG or Lahoz would have got LIV-BAY 1st leg so plans may change a bit.
DeleteHowever, although we must not underestimate Villarreal because they have incredibly knocked out Juventus and Bayern, I think the committee will expect a comfortable win for Liverpool and so won't panic too much. I expect Kovacs now.
That seems possible. I also think, dCG would have been an obvious choice for LIV-BAY. Maybe also an option for a possible MCI-CHE.
DeleteWithout background knowledge it's still hard to guess, who out of the 3 Spanish referee currently is the frontrunner for Qatar.
I hope Lahoz is the one chosen for Qatar. He is a great ref who, honestly, was not on very good form when Russia came around. Now, he is in maybe the best form of his career, so it would be sad if his World Cup experience was only 2018.
DeleteI believe that the chosen one will be Gil Manzano. They are training him for the big event in Qatar. A clear example was the call to the Copa America 2021.
DeleteBesides Gil has 1 U20 World Cup in 2019, where according to what I have read he did an excellent performance, allowing him to whistle the match for 3rd place.
But if they are chosen for experience, Mateu Lahoz would already have his ticket to Qatar.
Though I wouldn't mind seeing DCG blow its whistle in Doha.
Although analyzing my comment, it is enough for Gil Manzano by 2026 and not for DCG.
DeleteI am 99% sure that if they give DCG any of the 3 finals, he goes to Qatar and Gil Manzano waits for 2026.
I think the Copa America appointment was more of a consolation prize for being the third Spanish referee behind DCG and Lahoz; you can't take 3 Spanish referees to a single tournament so they gave him the Copa America exchange spot instead.
DeleteGil Manzano’s U20 WC was definitely not excellent. He struggled in his Hispanic group stage clash involving Honduras, gave a decisive wrong penalty in his R16 game for an alleged handling, and completely lost control of the third place playoff in a very poor performance (comparable to Siebert last night actually). If you watched the games, then you wouldn’t be calling the Spaniard’s tournament excellent. :)
DeleteHe showed very bad management. I think he's done this season.One thing I'm wondering is where is cakir??
ReplyDeleteÇakır's business is complicated and TFF can't assign him to the matches, and he still didn't let him manage the match in Switzerland, it's a complete disgrace for Turkey and if the Turkish referee committee doesn't appoint him tomorrow, this season and the world cup book will be completely closed for Çakır.
DeleteWhat kind of disgrace is this? Cakir's career shouldn't end like this!
DeleteI think Çakır will continue next year despite everything, because I want to say that the committee will also change after the TFF presidential election in June.
DeleteMaybe Cakir he will go to the world cup.. He has also become clear today that the UEFA referee board needs him.
DeleteSorry, but Siebert was way better tgan some suggest here. His obvious mistakes? A missed corner, 4 missed fouls (but many CORRECT play ons after theatralic divers and show acts by both sides) 2 missed YC, a missed RC against Simeones unacceptable behavior, one very good playon decision after a diver in the box including little contact by defender, so correctly no YC, not aby gamechanging mistakes, no corrections by VAR necessary, very good and correct performance by ARs and by Zwayer as 4th official during mass confrontation, very good and correct timemanagement, just a bit weak body language... So... an absolutely acceptable performance in an extremely challenging match. Siebert has not yet learned to adaot his body language to more authority, true, but remember Turpin in his first years: Exactly the same problem. I am not sure that Siebert will be the number 1 of Germany in 4 or 8 years, cause extremely convincing young talents are following (Petersen!!! , Badstuber, and Zwayer is still young, too) but he still has good cards for Qatar and time to learn. But for QL and EL he should be out for this season.
ReplyDeletebe a little neutral
DeleteI agree with you. A positive performance with some mistakes, something totally acceptable
DeleteForget Zwayer. The Hoyzer story (and its horrible management by DFB) still sticks on his boots and always will.
DeleteI always wonder why a referee who was found guilty of taking a bribe still officiates at the highest level.
DeleteTwo things can be true:
ReplyDeleteA) This was a very difficult game, especially due to the usual behavior of Atletico.
B) Siebert's stylistic approach to this game wasn't the right approach to take, and he wasn't at his sharpest tonight.
I don't think this match is the end of the world for Siebert; it was below average, but that assessment must be understood within the context of the level of difficulty of the match.
Regarding the appointment of Siebert in the first place, in a normal situation I would say that it was the wrong referee to appoint for this match, because the match didn't suit Siebert's style. However: 1) we all know of how many unforeseen problems UEFA has had with referees and how stretched their availability is right now, and 2) at some point, European referees who intend to go to the World Cup need to be exposed to these sorts of matches. Sometimes people assume that European referees at the World Cup are always the best because they ref in the biggest competitions. But the problem they sometimes have is that there aren't enough European teams who play with a style like what we saw from Atletico today, most teams focus on football. In other areas of the world, referees are exposed more frequently to these very stylistically challenging matches. So I think it is a good thing to expose Siebert to this: better for him to make his mistakes and learn from them now than for it to occur in a big game in Qatar.
I Think a style like ATM's style needs for south american style, Fernando Rapallini or Pitana can handle them easily because they see such behaviour a lot ib South America matches, and It is been clear that south america referees can handle European teams easily but the apposite not.
ReplyDeleteWhat they need is strict refereeing and a clear and public statement from UEFA that referees will be much stricter with dissent from all players and staff. It would have a huge effect but they will never do such a thing.
DeleteMatthew T perfectly pointed out the main reason of today's performance:
ReplyDelete"UEFA guidance to allow soft fouls to play on does not work in those situations. It needed very single foul whistled to retain control but then uefa wouldn’t like that. Within his powers, I’m not sure siebert could have done any more."
EXACTLY!
There is no place to 'use laidback approach' or 'take the backseat' in games involving teams that use 'dirty tactics'. Everybody should know that it is going to be a nightmare in such case. Even more the referees committe should know that.
To few of us who, contrary to UEFA Referees Committee, still try to analyse refereeing matters, it was clear that Siebert's strongest point was his approach - technical accuracy combined with a great ability to slow the games down when it was needed. That worked PERFECTLY at EURO2020!
I dare to say that UEFA's last instructions were most harmful to two referees: Hațegan and Siebert. These instructions to make the games artificially fluent by ignoring many fouls and not showing mandatory yellow cards totally disarmed these two referees. They can't and will never can referee in such way.
Rosetti, when instructing his referees, should have specified that there will be some exceptions (games involving teams like Atlético) when an authoritarian, law-enforcer style will be needed. Apparently, that wasn't the case.
When we add these two factors (disarming referees like Siebert and Hațegan, demanding the instructions to be implemented in such games like today's one) and the appointment together, one could have expect a nightmare already before the game.
I don't want to repeat myself and become a blind critic of Roberto Rosetti (yes, I understand the bad situation with too many departures, injuries, Karasyov and Çakır being out for political reasons) but he REALLY should revise his philosophy that could lead to more performances like those in Rangers FC - SK Slavia Praha, Austria - North Macedonia or Club Atlético de Madrid - Manchester City FC. You can use it in all-English duels but not necessarily in ENGvsESP or ESPvsPSG battles. Not every referee is such manager and leader like Orsato, Marciniak or Mateu Lahoz! One should have keep this in mind, either while making appointments or, even better, while conducting seminar.
+1000
DeleteIm just thinking that yeah, we said Orsato would be ideal for this match, but also there is one famous name in Turkey that UEFA would not appoint to any match :).
ReplyDeleteHe would be great in this match IMO.
But being great could be dangerous in UEFA! Remember Çakır's FAULTLESS performance in CROESP at EURO2020 after which he was sent home. Sometimes you can be even rewarded for losing control by UEFA! See: Brych's appointments after very poor performance in BELPOR in R16.
Delete;) ;) ;)
Politics ;)
DeleteWas it chefren who cynically claimed that Rosetti purposely gave Siebert ATM-MCI to make him fail?
ReplyDeleteI’m inclined to think you’re not the only one who thinks that after today’s performance
Watching ATMMCI today, I remembered Chefren's idea of deliberately letting Siebert fail today ... still I do not think Rosetti would have taken the risk of seeing Siebert as the new rising star of Europe's refs, if Siebert had performed more authorative tonight..
DeleteRosetti definitely set other referees up to fail in the past, but despite of how obviously bad idea this appointment was (for all the reasons that Euro Soccer Ref excellently orated), I'm quite sure that it wasn't made of malintent by UEFA's reffing leader.
DeleteA good case-in-point for evoking Hanlon's razor :)
Who are, in your opinion, those referees set up to fail in the past?
Delete@Mikael can you give an example of a referee who you think Rosetti set up to fail? Interesting in hearing your thoughts
DeleteWell at first we have the classic scenario of a ‘hot potato’ game which is deliberately given to a classic type of referee (usually a law-enforcer, not always), where if it goes well, great! But if not, they have no qualms at all with discarding this referee and saving later games for more ‘politically agreeable’ referees. This happened in pretty much every single WC that I covered. Rosetti examples of this would be Del Cerro’s appointment to FRAGER and Hațegan (hope his recovery is going well btw!!) to Atlético vs. Manchester United.
DeleteBut the classic example is Mateu’s EURO. Remember that in refereeing, the same as in one-party states, personal relationships matter very, very much of course. I am quite sure that Rosetti knew that he was burning the Spaniard out, but kept appointing him anyway. If he wasn’t rejected for PORFRA, then I’m sure Rosetti would have given him BELITA, with the final three appointments remaining exactly the same. It was terrible HR management, unlike Siebert’s brazen pushing, is not explained by Hanlon’s razor.
Seneme giving Cunha the ARGBRA game in last WCQ cycle is another perfect example of actually setting up a referee to fail too.
But the referees should demonstrate their ability to handle "hot potato" matches, so why not appointing them to such games? This is the way to find out what they can referee and what they are not able to handle.
DeleteI think we should be focusing more on UEFA and Rosetti rather than Siebert.
ReplyDeleteSiebert has been elite LESS than a YEAR. UEFA are either trying to make him the next Felix Brych (which he is not) or are setting him up to fail long term.
The fast tracking of these referees can be detrimental in the long run. Siebert is not experienced enough to handle these matches. He lost control of the game today.
ATM-MCI would have been perfect for someone like Cuneyt Cakir. Why a man of his experience and calibre is left out I do not know.
Cakir would have been excellent in this game, he had similar type of game 2017, whn Atlwtico played Real.
DeleteHoe showed cards in 4th and 6th minute, so that setcan example just like his othwr decisions and he had quite 2nd half, all beacuse he established calmness and control during hot and challenging 1st half.
Çakir's situation is the one that really hurts me a lot, an ELITE REFEREE with 2 WC Semifinals is left out of these GREAT matches because of a situation that gets out of his hands?
ReplyDeleteBesides, let's remember, Çakir has been removed from the final stages of the competitions (UCL, UEL, UECL, EURO) all because of Ceferin.
In a SVN-AUT qualifying match for EURO2020 where Ceferin (UEFA PRESIDENT) was observing the match, where Çakir was the referee, and Slovenia (country of the president) was left out of the EURO and he put all the responsibility on Çakir of elimination.
And being the President of UEFA could influence the appointments of Çakir examples?
Before that match Çakir reached the Semifinals of UC, UEL and after that match, for example in the TEMP20-21 he whistled 3 games of GS and 1 of 16.
And in TEMP21-22 he only registers 2 group stage games.
And another CLEAR EXAMPLE of this was in the EURO, where Çakir made an IMPECCABLE performance in CRO-ESP and DESERVED THE FINAL, and he was sent home right after the match.
They do this to one of the most experienced referees in the world. It's not fair Coincidence? I do not think so.
About the predictions for semifinals, it will be very difficult.
ReplyDeleteI think it can be absolutely true that committee had planned a semifinal for Del Cerro (even if not totally deserved, if you ask me), very likely the one with Bayern, now this isn't possible anymore. But... there is more. Rumors say that Orsato should be back not before the end of April, so this would mean that a possible appointment in CL semifinals is not sure. He will be back after a quite long time without a game. I thin they will do everything to appoint him, but if not possible... well, definitely a big problem.
Quite sure to see Turpin in Real - City, while the most flexible game is Liverpool - Villarreal. I think that Marciniak will get another assignment, the third name Vincic, and about the fourth name (if not Orsato), committee could wait for first leg score between Liverpool and Villarreal and making something like Gozubuyuk choice for quarterfinals. More unlikely in semifinals, but still... and in this case there could be some options. I would say that a name like Zwayer, given his experience, is a strong alternative in this regard.
To follow, Soareas Dias (but more unlikely).
I agree with your three clear names: Vincic, Marciniak, Turpin are all surefire appointments right now, absolutely guaranteed, given the absence of Cakir, Karasev, Hategan, all English and Spanish referees, etc.
DeleteIf Orsato is out, the fourth name is really difficult to find, there is no good solution. I suppose, if necessary, I would have to say Kovacs. It would be nice to save this fourth name for a blowout second leg between LIV and VIL, but saving them for that is quite risky - if that match turns out to be more difficult, it will have made more sense to use them in the first leg.
Maybe Cakir's situation can be resolved in time?
Honestly, if no one else becomes available by the time these matches come around, I feel like we could see a repeat of 2016 with referees being appointed to multiple of the final 5 games. Perhaps Vincic or Turpin or Marciniak will have 2 semifinals like Cakir did, or maybe they will give Makkellie a first leg and then use him again in the final (like Clattenburg did). Of course, that plan carries an element of risk itself, in the event of a disaster in the semifinal...
My predictions are these:
MCI-RMA: Vincic
LIV-VIL: Marciniak
RMA-MCI: Marciniak (Turpin if LIV-VIL is a blowout)
VIL-LIV: Turpin (Kovacs if LIV-VIL is a blowout)
Yes, agree, the new guidelines and laidback approach didn’t help Siebert. But there is more than that. I remember that Orsato and Makkelie didn’t whistle soft fouls in the Real-PSG games as well. There is something else they DID and I didn’t see it yesterday: mark your authority, show personality. Don’t be too passive. If player’s don’t behave: SCREAM. Issue cards for dissents. Issue mandatory yellow cards, even when it is very early in the game.
ReplyDeleteSo yes, I agree that new guidelines didn’t help Siebert, but yesterday was a perfect game to change his style. He should learn to adapt his style, being more versatile. He was too calm and passive. Trying to be at the background at all costs. Same with Turpin in Porto-Atletico. Also too passive and isolated, keeping the cards in his pocket.
Orsato, Makkelie and Marciniak are the only names that could have handled it.
Feeling the game is another aspect. I remember that, for example, Makkelie whistled ALL small fouls in the last 10 minutes of that Real-PSG game. To keep control. That's also something I missed yesterday.
DeleteFeeling the game, adapt style and strategy when needed, managing players, keep the benches calm, don't be affraid to mark a stamp (authority), issue mandatory cards. Refereeing is certainly not easy.
DeleteThere is a reason why Cakir, Kuipers, Brych and Skomina were always appointed to semi-finals, potentially complicated matches, south American clashes, hot atmospheres, etc. I miss them.
ReplyDeleteIf i can join you... i also must add that these tops refs were young and gained experience with tough and hot games.
DeleteThe step was (too) high for Daniel but no doubt he will learn and developp himself after such a game.
Have a look back with Clément Turpin in 2016 Feyenoord game. he worked hard to developp himself.
Each of us as ref knew complicated games wich educated us.
I wish (and have no doubt) that committee will help Daniel who is up-and-coming top ref. May Bjorn Kuipers and Felix Brych can also help him to develop his management skills.
We benefited from the benevolence of our elders, it is also possible to give credit to Daniel on the one hand for pointing out that this game was very difficult, and on the other hand for making him benefit from the benevolence. You don't become a top referee in a few matches.
We can always discuss whether the appointment was appropriate, but I think it's a good thing to confront him with difficulties and then to help him. This will certainly be done by UEFA.
I do not write i'm absolutely right, it's just my opinion.
Agree. Siebert is a great(!) referee, but he needs to take smaller steps. The Liverpool-Benfica game was perfect for him.
DeleteIn first legs, the committee can appoint some 'un-experienced' refs that had a good season. Some new names at that stage.
ReplyDeleteSince the abolishment of "away goals", I noticed that in all 1st legs, the intensity is even lower than in previous years. Players behave well, because they have a chance to turn things around in a 2nd leg. The 2nd legs require two very experienced names. Orsato is one of them. Hope he makes it.
Here's two comments from yesterday I'd like to discuss: "Anonymous13 April 2022 at 23:06
ReplyDeleteSeriously guys, it is as if none if you ever refereed a game. Blaming siebert for the last fifteen minutes is utterly outrageous, he did everything he could to keep an uncontrollable situation under control and kept his calm, so for that alone he should be commended, not criticized.
Reply
Replies
Referee 1213 April 2022 at 23:09
I agree with Anonymus here in every single word."
For me, if Siebert had given the YC at 13' for the knock that drew blood on Foden's head, it would have helped prevent all tht was to happen later. Refereeing, like policing, for me has to be preventive. Calling smaller fouls helps prevent larger fouls and giving cards for reckless play helps prevent more reckless play. So Siebert's lax actions earlier made the match more difficult for him later on.
If I am not mistaken, a good while back. There was an individual with the user name of Sheriff who portrayed himself as a by the book referee. And it's been a long time since he's posted a comment. But TBH I can't blame him, because he was talked down to and at times ridiculed for what most of you perceived as his antiquated views. Yet here we find ourselves bashing Rosetti for forcing his modern ways upon his referee's. Something that Sheriff was adamantly against. He made it very clear on multiple occasions that he was disgusted at how the referee's in CONCACAF were forced to officiate by Brian Hall. I remember one of his last posts as having a tone of feeling discouraged and more so defeated to the point of giving up on watching any televised matches. Only for a fellow user to suggest that instead of watching CONCACAF matches, that he watch UEFA matches as they were somehow different. But after watching Seibert, I don't think that Sheriff would see much difference between Seibert and John Pitti in USA-MEX Nations League Final. So maybe he had a point and he was right all along.
ReplyDeleteIf you read this Sheriff, I hope you are well and are still active as a referee. Thank you for being true to the LoTG and never wavering from who you are as a referee. From one referee to another, be well!
Good comment anonymous!
DeleteI want to add a small nuance to your comment.
Some games demand a very strict (no-nonsense) referee, while for other games it is better to be a bit more lenient and background-minded. It really depends on the football culture, the players, etc. In the country where I live, a referee is not accepted when he is pedantic and authorive, whistles with the LOTG in its hands, losing the big picture.
Basically, this is what most referees nowadays are really LACKING the most: reading the game, being versatile, change their style and strategy when the game demands it.
Just some thoughts:
ReplyDeleteI don't (or rather: refuse to) believe that Siebert was unable to adapt his approach to yesterday's duel.
His ability to form detailed plans re. his tactical approach to matches, including the use of disciplinary measures, is something I've always admired when seeing him refereeing. Actually, he said himself, multiple times, that his refereeing is about reading the game and adjusting his tools accurately - but he uses tactical approach for that (impressively well!) and NOT so much charisma, body language, voice; it doesn't NEED these things to be a great referee when you excel using tactic adjustments like Siebert. I'm certain that Siebert analysed Atletico's previous matches detailedy (that's needed when your refereeing philosophy is to adjust your tactical use of measures to the teams more than general charisma and player contact) and I don't and won't believe that he NOT realized that a strict use of foul recognition and bookings was in need there. Obviously, there is a problem when you're literally NOT ALLOWED to use your essential measures adequately. And as Siebert obviously doesn't want to neglect the guidelines of his boss when refereeing a high-pressure match like yesterday's, his failure was not really unexpectable. Going along with that, I'm certain Siebert knew himself that a reckless action like the one in13' by an Atletico player definetly screamed to be sanctioned with a yellow card. But Rosetti's guidelines to allow a lot physical play contradicted this choice here - in fact, a strict (and for UEFA: boring) approach in this media-covered duel would destroy the referee picture the commitee tried to implement.
I'm sorry for you, Mr. Siebert.
On a wider note: I don't see the point in commenting on referee's performances anymore tbh because I can't criticise a ref for a 'bad' performance when he is disarmed and has no chance to adequately use his tools.
Agree that Siebert looked disarmed. Are we sure that this was his strategy because Rosetti wanted him to do so? Orders from the chef?
DeleteI’m not completely sure, because Orsato and Makkelie had a very different disciplinary approach when they officiated PSG and/or Atletico recently. They did issue early YC’s, applied a stricter disciplinary line... How do we clarify that?
I certainly see what you mean with Makkelie's and Orsato's great performances in PSG-RMA/... but I don't really think we can compare Siebert's QF with them.
DeleteMy observation is that nearly no referee in the upper Elite pool is as dependend on tactical approach and detailed adjustment as Siebert is (maybe Hategan as well; I wish a speedy recovery!) - ESR explained that in previous comments.
Makkelie and Orsato, as examples, but also Marciniak, who has a good season, etc. can compensate the guidelines with natural authority, charisma, player contact and these 'non-tactical' skills. That's why they are able to succeed in hot clashes even though their disciplinary line is not sooo strict (stricter than usual of course) over all.
If Orsato is not recovered for Semi-Finals, could we see a potential CL SF appointment followed then by CL/EL final for someone such as Makkelie or Marciniak, because there are not 4 'obvious' names for the SF's without Orsato. Ordinarily, one would think that both final referees would now be kept back but this may not be possible?
ReplyDeleteMy predictions if Orsato does NOT recover:
DeleteMCI-RMA
1° Vincic
2° Turpin
LIV-VIL
1° Jovanovic
2° Kovacs
FINAL
REF: Makkelie
4°: Vincic
I don't think the committee is going to appoint Marciniak to SF from CL. Because if they put him in RMA-MCI I don't think it's possible, because he blew the RMA in 4th and in VIL-LIV he blew the LIV 2 TIMES IN THE SEASON (LIV-MIL / LIV-INT) I don't think the committee put it a 3rd time. I think they will put it in a Conference SF and from there to the UEL final.
ReplyDeleteTurpin is 100% on a SF. Orsato is if fit.
DeleteThat leaves Vicnic and Kovacs and Siebert for the other 2 spaces.
Vicnic and Siebert(Turpin if Orsato fit) in Liverpool and Kovacs and Turpin( Orsato is fit)
Danny Makkelie for the final
I wouldn't be surprised if West ham loose tonight for Marciniak to whistle a UCL SF and Taylor get the EL final
Why not add Jovanovic for SF from CL? Maybe he is the surprise because he has done quite well I think.
DeleteToo soon for Jovanovic. SF in UCL? I don't think he is ready for this.
DeleteI don't think so either, but there may be no choice. For unless they double-appoint one of the most experienced referees, then by process of elimination we must see *someone* who is inexperienced on one of the four semifinal matches.
Delete@ Chefren:
ReplyDeleteWhat are your expectations about Siebert's future appointments - and have the results of your poll (thanks for that - very interesting!) any influence on your thoughts about Siebert?
After the game in Madrid, I think it will be unlikely to see Siebert again this season, we must also add that he got three games in KO stage and this could be enough. However, I think in normal conditions for sure he could have got a semifinal in Europa League, now with German teams impossible, so I think he will be out.
DeleteThe results of the poll are indeed interesting, the winning option is "performance with important areas for improvement, including missing disciplinary actions". One can agree, since there weren't crucial mistakes, this assessment can inded describe exactly the display by the German. However, in terms of control, especially in the last minutes of the game, the lack of a good disciplinary management caused some effects that made the perception of the performance even worse than it really was.
It is true that the German needs to make further experience, and I'm sure he will learn from this game, but for me a performance still below expectations, because he should have changed his style. Not a game for him in the moment he got the assignment. However, if you are asking about the future of Siebert, I don't think it was a dramatic chapter of his international careeer, but surely the most difficult, and an occasion for trying to be different in future in such games.
Thank you for your substantial answer! I agree ...
DeleteBut what I was asking myself these days follwoing the discussions here: Is it really the case that Rosetti "disarmed" the refs? How could he do that?
As soon as the ref enters the pitch, he is in charge and has to do the best to his abilities to enforce the rules. Isn't it so that in the end his performance will be measured in this respect?
Is it really possible, that an elite ref will be blamed (by Rosetti) for example - let's say - sending coaches off who leave the technical zone all throughout the game? This is something Siebert and Zwayer failed to execute. And why should Rosetti be happy seeing Simeone's behavior?
Think Siebert done a great game and brilliant management of the players even when things went out of control.
ReplyDelete