Discussion about 2022-23 UEFA Champions League Group Stage Matchday 2, Tuesday games.
13 September 2022
18:45 CET - Plzeň (Stadion města Plzně)
Viktoria Plzeň (CZE) - FC Internazionale (ITA) | Group CReferee: Sandro Schärer (SUI)
Assistant Referee 1: Bekim Zogaj (SUI)
Assistant Referee 2: Jonas Erni (SUI)
Fourth Official: Lukas Fähndrich (SUI)
Video Assistant Referee: Fedayi San (SUI)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Lionel Tschudi (SUI)
UEFA Referee Observer: Terje Hauge (NOR)
UEFA Delegate: Peter Lundström (FIN)
18:45 CET - Lisbon (Estádio José Alvalade)
Sporting CP (POR) - Tottenham (ENG) | Group DReferee: Srdjan Jovanović (SRB)
Assistant Referee 1: Uroš Stojković (SRB)
Assistant Referee 2: Milan Mihajlović (SRB)
Fourth Official: Novak Simović (SRB)
Video Assistant Referee: Paolo Valeri (ITA)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Massimiliano Irrati (ITA)
UEFA Referee Observer: Pascal Pierre Garibian (FRA)
UEFA Delegate: Radenko Mijatović (SVN)
21:00 CET - Liverpool (Anfield)
Liverpool (ENG) - Ajax (NED) | Group AReferee: Artur Dias (POR)
Assistant Referee 1: Rui Tavares (POR)
Assistant Referee 2: Paulo Soares (POR)
Fourth Official: Antonio Nobre (POR)
Video Assistant Referee: Tiago Martins (POR)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Luis Godinho (POR)
UEFA Referee Observer: Michael Argyrou (CYP)
UEFA Delegate: Jovan Šurbatović (SRB)
21:00 CET - Porto (Estádio do Dragão)
Porto (POR) - Club Brugge (BEL) | Group B
Referee: Anastasios Sidiropoulos (GRE)
Assistant Referee 1: Polychronis Kostaras (GRE)
Assistant Referee 2: Lazaros Dimitriadis (GRE)
Fourth Official: Aristotelis Diamantopoulos (GRE)
Video Assistant Referee: Aggelos Evangelou (GRE)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Marco Di Bello (ITA)
UEFA Referee Observer: David Malcom (NIR)
Referee: Anastasios Sidiropoulos (GRE)
Assistant Referee 1: Polychronis Kostaras (GRE)
Assistant Referee 2: Lazaros Dimitriadis (GRE)
Fourth Official: Aristotelis Diamantopoulos (GRE)
Video Assistant Referee: Aggelos Evangelou (GRE)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Marco Di Bello (ITA)
UEFA Referee Observer: David Malcom (NIR)
UEFA Delegate: Michel Schafroth (SUI)
21:00 CET - Leverkusen (BayArena)
Bayer Leverkusen (GER) - Atlético Madrid (ESP) | Group BReferee: Michael Oliver (ENG)
Assistant Referee 1: Stuart Burt (ENG)
Assistant Referee 2: Simon Bennett (ENG)
Fourth Official: Darren England (ENG)
Video Assistant Referee: Christopher Kavanagh (ENG)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Stuart Attwell (ENG)
UEFA Referee Observer: Viktor Kassai (HUN)
UEFA Delegate: Jaroslav Dudl (CZE)
Assistant Referee 1: Stuart Burt (ENG)
Assistant Referee 2: Simon Bennett (ENG)
Fourth Official: Darren England (ENG)
Video Assistant Referee: Christopher Kavanagh (ENG)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Stuart Attwell (ENG)
UEFA Referee Observer: Viktor Kassai (HUN)
UEFA Delegate: Jaroslav Dudl (CZE)
21:00 CET - Munich (Fußball Arena München)
Bayern München (GER) - Barcelona (ESP) | Group CReferee: Danny Makkelie (NED)
Assistant Referee 1: Hessel Steegstra (NED)
Assistant Referee 2: Jan de Vries (NED)
Fourth Official: Allard Lindhout (NED)
Video Assistant Referee: Pol van Boekel (NED)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Tomasz Kwiatkowski (POL)
UEFA Referee Observer: Laurent Duhamel (FRA)
UEFA Delegate: Mark Blackbourne (ENG)
Assistant Referee 1: Hessel Steegstra (NED)
Assistant Referee 2: Jan de Vries (NED)
Fourth Official: Allard Lindhout (NED)
Video Assistant Referee: Pol van Boekel (NED)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Tomasz Kwiatkowski (POL)
UEFA Referee Observer: Laurent Duhamel (FRA)
UEFA Delegate: Mark Blackbourne (ENG)
21:00 CET - Marseille (Vélodrome)
Olympique Marseille (FRA) - Eintracht Frankfurt (GER) | Group D Referee: José Maria Sanchez (ESP)
Assistant Referee 1: Raúl Cabañero (ESP)
Assistant Referee 2: Iñigo Prieto (ESP)
Fourth Official: Guillermo Cuadra (ESP)
Video Assistant Referee: Juan Martinez (ESP)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Marco Guida (ITA)
UEFA Referee Observer: Vítor Manuel Melo Pereira (POR)
UEFA Delegate: Thibault De Gendt (BEL)
Does anyone have full list of referees included in UEFA talent and mentor program?
ReplyDeleteI have seen Saggi with Wegereef
Enea Jorgji (ALB) - Allard Lindhout (NED) - Harm Osmers (GER) - Gergő Bogár (HUN) - Filip Glova (SVK) - Rohit Saggi (NOR) - Anastasios Papapetrou (Gre) - Manfredas Lukjančukas (Lit)Lithuania - Sebastian Gishamer (Aus). Can't remember the other 2.
DeleteAny chance you know the pairings talent-mentor, as someone suggested Saggi - Wegereef?
DeleteThe other 2 refs are Dario Bel - Croatia; Morten Krogh -Denmark. I don't know the pairings. Jorgji is with Kapitanis I think.
DeleteI bet Makkelie Will make controversial move again. Like last time he did In Milan Liverpool Matchday 6 21/22
ReplyDeleteWhy ? The natural of comments seem to indicate your do not like him as a referee—-m
DeleteI created an Excel with the VARs appointments by country in MD1 & MD2, in UCL & UEL. There are 5 Sheets: UCL MD1, UCL MD2, UEL MD1, UEL MD2 and TOTAL. Enjoy:
ReplyDeletehttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jd-Ic7_ezLUMm3RrCzpEQVJ-acYAciff/edit#gid=1049545481
thanks for your job matei. appreciate it
DeleteGreat Job Matei; thanks
Delete13' YC for SPA in PLZ-INT, very close to DOGSO. No VAR stuff imo as the player has no control over the ball yet but RC would have also been accepted by VAR.
ReplyDeleteBoth is supportable. Nothing for San.
DeleteWe saw several red cards in such incidents in preliminary rounds, now the "expected decision" (SPA) has come again in CL GS :)
DeleteYC by Schärer. I think supportable because no ball controll by Inter player.
ReplyDelete21’ Missed YC für Barella
ReplyDeleteNice simple half for Jovanovic
ReplyDeleteClear SFP missed by Schaerer, he missed the RC live and he was called to OFR. Fully agree with Fedayi San, a very serious injury is about to happen, I think...
ReplyDeleteHmm, for me its an "orange" card, red card is possible but yellow also, not sure about VAR interference was needed here.
DeleteVAR was very quick, TV did not even catch the OFR because they showed some replays. Schaerer could have spotted it live, his position was actually pretty good. RC is the correct decision.
DeleteGood, calm performance from Jovanovic, 5 bookings second half all of which were fully accepted. Well done to him 2 out of 2 good performances
ReplyDeleteGood evening for Jovanovic in Lisbon. Consistent disciplinary control (especially towards SPA offenses), in control, full acceptance. Well done.
ReplyDeleteNever a YC imo by Makkelie due to overreaction from Busquets, shame that players still do that he was clearly fine
ReplyDeletewrong YC
DeleteAgree that is wrong for UCL standards. But supportable by the book because of intensity.
DeleteCorrect penalty by Sidiropoulos in Porto, right now a possible penalty for handball in Leverkusen, but I think VAR should support referee's decision to play on due to arm position.
ReplyDeleteCorrect PK in Porto. Clear tripping by defender. YC not needed, it was just SPA and careless
ReplyDeleteIMO correct PK by Sidiropoulos in Porto.
ReplyDeleteIncredible mistake by Oliver and Kavanagh in B.Leverkusen- A.Madrid: clear penalty (handball) not given.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Incredible mistake.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI must rewatch but my first impression was that arm was not so much out of body? We will see from the video.
Deletehttps://streamable.com/xeau7o
DeleteWell, handballs in the penalty area is a never ending story... In German Bundesliga, we had many (no) handball decisions that were very debatable. One had the impression, that there is no consistency in the interpretation. Applying the German recommendations by Lutz Wagner from the last weekend, it was correct or at least more than supportable to play on. The arm position was not really unnatural and the player tried to avoid a hitting the ball. I guess English referees have a similar tendency, they do not want to punish every handball. However, we all know that it is totally different in other countries. I predict that Spanish and Italian referees would definitely go for a handball here as the arm was not very close to the body.
DeleteIt is kind of a dilemma here, but probably the UEFA guidelines go in the Italian/Spanish direction. I would not blame VAR here.
Uhfff… I’m completely astonished how a penalty was not awarded in the end. Maybe hard to see for Oliver, but why, why didn’t VAR intervene? Arm out of the body, moving towards the ball.
DeleteFor those who can make a video, 22’ minute in Leverkusen-Atletico.
I have to admit it seems he tries to move his arm away from the ball. At first glance I had the impression he moved it towards the ball. Still quite far out of the body and an expected ball coming from a distance
DeleteAs we say in Spain, a penalty as big as the Burgos cathedral!
DeleteWell, rewatching the incident I must say that the arm is quite open, I was a bit deceived by the left leg trying that action, it makes look the arm in a more natural position, but it is indeed rather open than close to body. Penalty should have been whistled also because it was expected ball, really don't know about the ideas of committee regarding VAR intervention, this is very borderline.
DeleteShould be a penalty. However Chris Kavanagh doesn’t give penalties for handball as a VAR. It’s not as bad as the Rodri decision but it’s still a penalty. Oliver is not expected to see it that.
DeletePenalty for me too. Let's say the arm is open enough to warrant a penalty IMO. The fact that he was moving the arm away stands, however I still think it was a punishable handball, despite this.
DeleteVAR intervention, however, is something I'm not so sure about. Really borderline for me, mainly because the attempt to move his hand away.
I disagree. The arm is the position you would expect for the attempt to play the ball the player is making.
DeleteFor me play on as well is at least supportable. There is no clear point of whistling a penalty. At least no VAR stuff
DeleteArm by his side, moving it away
ReplyDeleteNever a penalty
What a penalty missed by Makkelie. What was VAR doing?? Clear tripping.
ReplyDeletePotential penalty in BAY-BAR, im not too sure it looks interesting but probably not VAR stuff
ReplyDeleteTo add to my above: doesn’t get the ball and Dembele gets there first and looks like Davies trips him, would’ve supported a penalty there
DeleteOne might argue that Dembele makes a movement towards the defender with the aim to get hit. But let me say penalty would not have been wrong...
Deletehttps://streamff.com/v/ac4b08
DeleteOf course a penalty. He tripped him.
DeleteOf course no penalty. He hooks his leg in himself.
DeleteOn replay looked to be trying to actively move his arm out of the way, I think that is what has saved him. Arm movement was backwards and behind his body not towards the ball.
ReplyDeleteThe incident from Bayern - Barcelona, in my opinion penalty was possible but not a clear and obvious mistake:
ReplyDeletehttps://streamff.com/v/ac4b08
Argument: the movement with leg by attacker as well, it isn't an action ny only defender's side, that would have justified a whistle, here you can think that attacker made that to get it.
This should be reason for Makkelie's choice, I think...
Agreed, supportable no penalty call. It would have been a soft one. Apart from that, in slo-mo context of the situation is lost as well.
DeleteGerman TV experts Josefine Hennig and Matthias Sammer made exactly the same point as you, while Wolfgang Stark said it's a clear penalty.
DeleteDembele waits for the contact and deliberately trips his shoe behind the leg of the Bayern player. The way Dembele falls is also quite “unnatural”. No-PK is the best call
DeleteAgree with you, way more play on than penalty for me. It seems he really tried to win it by moving his leg the way he did. And definitely not a clear and obvious situation, so nothing for the VAR.
DeleteOliver: In England this would be assessed as 'ball-to-hand' and play on. If TURITA is a *clear* missed penalty for UEFA corps, then surely intervention is expected here (expected ball). Interesting scene also on a referee personality level...
ReplyDeleteMakkelie: Correct play on. Dembélé is later to this duel for the ball than Davies, and puts his leg across to try and generate a penalty. VAR would support either way but penalty call would be quite erroneous one, at least in my idea.
IMO Makkelie has had a very mediocre evening, consistency for bookings, fouls etc hasn’t been there
ReplyDeleteAnd still full acceptance and control and a smooth game! I guess he did do something very well then ;)
DeleteGood game for Makkelie, expected level performance. Disciplinary management maybe a bit generous, but completely accepted by both teams. IMO some fouls could have been sanctioned, not should have, especially regarding the level of control and acceptance.
The acceptance probably originates from the fact that it's basically an enhanced friendly because both teams can be pretty confident making it through.
DeleteVery true but that’s only because they two teams are disciplined and are fully focused on their football so have no reason to complain as long as the decision isn’t outrageous but nothing near special from the dutchman
Delete@Kaer Quite a remarkable statement on MD2 with an Italian top team in the same group as well…
Delete@22:54
DeleteMakkelie is on his best when he IS challenged by the players, or when he is under extreme pressure.
If a game is fair, it’s not his game to shine!
EXCELLENT Soares Dias tonight.
ReplyDeleteOnly god knows what committee was thinking while appointing World Cup referees. What a shame. Artur Manuel Ribeiro Soares Dias should be in Qatar.
Brilliant referee, was there an official reason for him not going to Qatar
DeleteThe fact that he was/is not consistent enough and the fact that he is not italian ;)
DeleteDisagreed, he doesn’t apply champions league style, whistling way too much and making the match nervous. Not too bad, but definitely not excellent Imo
DeleteI agree with @22:48, he could have let the game flow a bit more (and referees are expected to do so), not a bad performance at all (expected level), but not the most pleasant game to watch as a result
DeleteI really like Soares Dias and his new style! He changed from having the whistle on his lanyard + finger grip set up, to holding the Valkeen loose like eg. an Italian - result being that he takes more a backseat in the games, stuck in the centre of the pitch, but this doesn't seem to have badly affected his decision-making. Rather the contrary actually.
DeletePositive TURWAL (and even that he lost control of at the very end) was rather the exception to not-good 20/21 season for the Portuguese, and he lost any chance of a WC ticket finally in ENGCZE. Distant, inconsistent in calls: Soares Dias was very limited at that time. But he improved much with this new style IMO, let's see if he can now reach sth in the UEFA scene.
What is the connection between no whistle on lanyard and improved decision making?
DeleteFor Soares Dias specifically ^^. Idk, somehow it just helped him. My feeling is that in lanyard set-up he stayed in the background overly, and was too passive/hesistant in leadership + calls. He improved significantly now IMO.
DeleteWouldn't say he has a back seat. he blows whistle too much- could have let the game flow much more
DeleteSanchez in Marseille is having a difficult night. I’m not sure about the consistency of the decisions between the German and the French team.. he’s lucky that French team is being not aggressive to him or German players
ReplyDeleteI felt he was brilliant!
DeleteMissed only one YC in the 7th or 8th minute, other than that: Very, very consistent and correct foul identification, always in control. Excellent performance by Sanchez.
That’s the beauty of refereeing and of this blog, our interpretation can be different !
DeleteHow was sidiropoylos ?
ReplyDeleteHow was Oliver’s overall performance?
ReplyDeleteOverall, he’s good, as expected from him. About the penalty missed, I think his view is blocked. Down to VAR IMO
DeleteTonight is an excellent example of balancing the appointments. With Italian and French refs in the 2 GER-ESP games, the away teams would probably both have had a penalty. For the return legs, UEFA should appoint such referees to try and balance this out to ensure fairness. The same with, for instance, Ajax and Napoli (German ref in one leg, Spanish ref in the other leg)
ReplyDeleteMakkelie with a calm night in Munic. Good controle and acceptance by the players and benches. Correct disciplinary line and foul detection. IMO one FK missed in front of 1st assistant, but not important. PK would have been very soft, rather wrong as the attacker looks for the contact. But sure no simulation. No challenging situations at all. Expected level.
ReplyDeleteI agree. He was his usual solid self. Sure some will argue about the non penalty call, especially the losing team, although as they couldn't manage to score from their 16/18 shots during the game, whose to say they would have scored from it if he had have given it. For me it was not a penalty Dembale looked for contact imo, very unnatural fall as well, very careful not to hurt himself as opposed to how you fall having been taken out suddenly. Certainly no clear and obvious error either. His man management is exceptional, he's not a referee who needs to resort to yellow cards to keep discipline. Players respect him and it shows. No Barca people went into the dressing room after and there were no issues in that respect. I have it on very good authority from someone who was present in the area and who I trust 100%. Someone out there is just trying to make issues where none exist.
Delete+1
DeleteSolid but not exceptional performance from Arthur Dias tonight. Some good moments, some bad and some funny such as him falling over his own feet. Good call from AR1 with the flag in order to give the goal and use of goal line tech.
ReplyDeleteShort reports on two games I watched today :)
ReplyDeleteJovanović at good, expected level. But what I have observed, especially on MD1, is his unwillingness to use public warnings and strict reactions against some bad behaviours. He either ignores dissent / mobbing / DtR or says something running past the offender. He should work on this aspect, especially now, when the current UEFA's main focus is match control.
Sánchez Martinez had a challenging game. No significant key match incidents but many duels in the middle to assess for him. I think the Spaniard was decent overall (with so many duels impossible to be faultless) but missed two yellow cards for reckless challenges (8', 84'). On the other hand, he brilliantly found the right moment for the opening card in 37' after cumulation of fouls by FRA players. What is most important, maintaining control was the biggest challenge for him today and he fully succeeded (the game could have easily been a nightmare for the referee)!
I thought with goal line technology the linesman shouldn’t raise the flag to award a goal?
ReplyDeleteWhat happens if the whistle doesn’t buzz, it looks very wrong.
I assume the AR was just very confident in his decision
DeleteCorrect well done the assistant referee—-M
DeleteFull sequence LEV-ATM (Oliver) 22' handball incident
ReplyDeletehttps://streamff.com/v/8cfa79
I think Oliver's view is blocked, so Kavanagh should have called Oliver to the monitor because the Leverkusen player's hand is outstretched (making bigger than his body) so it should be a punishable handball
DeleteThx for the clip. Oliver is about to blow for a penalty (0:20), isn't he? I wonder what changes his mind. My only guess would be Burt's input? A clear penalty missed intervention IMO, I'm sure this evaluation will appear on the RefNetwork.
DeleteI feel like the issue with these handballs is that we seem to get entirely different outcomes depending on where the referee team is from. By German/English standards that is a supportable NO penalty decision, for Italian/Spanish standards it's a clear pen. I think it's fair to say UEFA expects a penalty here looking at the RAP but at the same time there seems to be no consistency at all.
Deletethx Mikael, I didn't notice Oliver was about to make a call. That should indicate that his view is unobstructed, I think Oliver should talk about this what made him change his mind :))
DeleteHis body language throughout was "no, its not a pen, arms are by his side but we will check it, just in case"
DeleteClear penalty missed
DeleteI wonder sometimes if we are watching the same clips!
ReplyDeleteThere is no movement to the ball, if anything he is moving his arm away.
Plus his arm is by his side, which weare told is the natural.position.
And I wonder sometimes if people adopt their own or their domestic guidelines instead of Uefa’s
Delete(see my comment above :))
DeleteYes. We can be sure that UEFA’s preference is OFR + PK
DeleteWhy should individual federations like Uefa, FA, KNVB, DFB all have their own manuals, sorry but I'm getting tired of all those own rules and styles, I think there is ONE manual... and those are the laws of the game
DeleteI think referees get sick of this too, special orders when you referee for FA, other orders when you referee for UEFA, and again other orders when you referee for FIFA, and then let's think it's strange when referees make mistakes!
Exactly. The champions league is loosing its integrity and its just becoming luck as to the country that the referee is from.
DeleteI totally agree to Ex Eng Ref arguments. The question above everything is and should be whether there is any deliberate action or intention by the player. And after having watched the incident i d say no.
DeleteThen you just leave more room for interpretation to the individual referee. National federations don't change the LOtG, they just fill the void because the original text is pretty ambiguous.
DeleteNo, not exactly! National federations make it more complicated! The LOTG are clear and worldwide, it now appears that you see clear differences in the explanation of eg Hands in Italy and England, while this should be the same everywhere, it should not matter if you have a referee from Ecuador, Nigeria, Luxembourg or China, the rules of the game must be applied the same
Deletewhat I'm worried about is obviously what standards will be used later in the World Cup. I'm not underestimate other confederations, but in UEFA, which in fact is the most advanced one, we can't have same perception, what about the VAR of other confederations that are below the UEFA level, I'm sure they also can't have same perception but this is the problem, when the different perceptions are still different inside it. It would make big trouble in whole tournament, if FIFA or IFAB can't making strict the standard internationally.
Deleteyou will argue with the wall, you have different perceptions, but you still in the different "levels" too.
DeleteReally enjoy reading the comments and views. Help!!! I view in my mobile phone ‘safari’ I don’t get the links to the incidents highlighted. Is there any way they can / should be? Or would they be if I was using on a laptop?
ReplyDeleteI seem to miss lots of things.
Any advice appreciated.
Great site, well done to all who contribute.
Do you see the links but can't open them? A link looks like this: https://streamff.com/v/8cfa79
DeleteThat’s exactly what I mean. I can see them but not able to access
DeleteJust copy and paste them into a new browser window :)
Delete
ReplyDeletePenalty for handball will be never ending story as long as there is no standard measurement.
How many inch/centimeter do you mean when you say “make body bigger” and measure at which part of the body? waist to elbow or hip to forearm/hand?
Other factors - natural/unnatural position, who confirms? Move toward/move away will be counted?
However, one thing I can feel is (with respect to all the people here)… if the controversy comes from Oliver (or Turpin), 70%-80% of the comments will go against him. But if the same situation comes from Makkelie (or Taylor) 70% -80% may change their mind and say it is at least supportable.
BTW, I do agree that there should be one standard for all handball decision.
I would advocate in these cases to simply introduce criteria of ball going towards the goal. If the shot is stopped with arm that makes the body bigger - PK. If not, and if the arm is in natural position and there is no intention to block the ball - play on
DeleteWhat happened to the old simple, did he move his arm to the ball. Yes= penalty. No= play on.
ReplyDeleteAfter watching the highlights of the 16 games I would say that Sidiropoulos deserves one more game in the grouped phase . First time I saw him confident on the pitch .
ReplyDelete