As the previous post reached the maximum number of comments, let's continue the discussion about Çakır performance here.
Estadio Santiago Bernabéu, Madrid (ESP)
Real Madrid CF - FC Bayern München
Referee: Cüneyt Çakır (TUR)
Assistant Referee 1: Bahattin Duran (TUR)
Assistant Referee 2: Tarik Ongun (TUR)
Additional Assistant Referee 1: Hüseyin Göçek (TUR)
Additional Assistant Referee 2: Barış Şimşek (TUR)
Fourth Official: Mustafa Emre Eyisoy (TUR)
UEFA Referee Observer: Francesco Bianchi (SUI)
Referee: Cüneyt Çakır (TUR)
Assistant Referee 1: Bahattin Duran (TUR)
Assistant Referee 2: Tarik Ongun (TUR)
Additional Assistant Referee 1: Hüseyin Göçek (TUR)
Additional Assistant Referee 2: Barış Şimşek (TUR)
Fourth Official: Mustafa Emre Eyisoy (TUR)
UEFA Referee Observer: Francesco Bianchi (SUI)
UEFA Delegate: Mark Blackbourne (ENG)
Other 200 comments allowed... LET’S DO IT!
ReplyDelete;)
Missed YC for Martínez
ReplyDeleteIt seems so.
DeleteMikael W1 May 2018 at 22:23
ReplyDeleteAgreed, but what about the local referee that correctly issues YC for dissent, and get the response "but in Champions League...".
I understand Kuipers' approach of totally ignoring it for it worked on the night, but not every referee in the world enters the pitch with such a charisma to do that...
An arrogant and optional use of the Law's mindset used by certain referees sets a dangerous precedent for local lette level referees. As Mikael said, those players will reply with a "but in the Champions League" line. The weekend warrior local player watched and tries to emulate what he sees on the telly.
Nothing in life is completely positive or completely negative... Everything has both plus and minus... Any referee having a strong personality and charisma will use it to his benefits... That's the modern day requirement from the powers that be!!
DeleteSo Turpin and his style is doomed?
DeleteWhy will it be doomed? If it works well for him well and good... But we have seen Turpin spoiling countless domestic games with his over-officious style and he is obviously not too highly rated by players, coaches and fans in France... I personally am not a fan of Turpin's style too... But if it works well for him then well and good!!
DeleteI'm glad that he isn't "highly rated" by players, coaches, and fans. As referee's there is zero reason why we need to be friends or buddy with any of those groups of people. We're there to do a job assisted by our AR's who are our only "friends" on the pitch. While being guided by The Law's of the Game.
DeleteSpoil???
DeleteDid he "spoil" Arsenal vs Atletico last week? Or did he do what is right according to The Law's of the Game? All while fully supporting the true spirit of the game. By keeping the players on the pitch who want to play and dismissing those who egregiously break the Law's.
We need to watch at leadt 5 additional minutes
ReplyDeleteI have a feeling that we're going to get 3 maximum. Referees are complacent to time waisting although they do occasionally caution players. Yet they never add that last time.
DeleteThere you go ;)
Delete48 seconds of added time lost. Will it be added?
DeleteHope so
DeleteTime properly added for the time wasting... Hopefully you're happy :)
DeleteDoing the right thing isn't about making people happy. It's simply about doing what is right and living up to the true spirit of the game.
DeleteMy marks for Cakir will be 7.4 considering the two missed penalties as
ReplyDeletecrucial mistakes!!
We butt heads quite often as you well know. But I agree with your marks. Cakir had too many match outcome affecting mistakes.
Delete7.9 (8.2/3) my opinion
DeletePlease allow me a bit of irony:
Delete@sheriff and @soham agree on something... This match shall be remembered in our minds!
I would find it absolutely unbelievable if Bianchi went into the debrief and told Çakir that he missed clear black/white mistake for the second situation. Black/White! And IMO it was a nothing anyway.
DeleteOf course missed handball is a crucial mistake.
So I agree with @Jovan- 7,9(2/3) seems fair considering everything.
Fully supported, Soham. It's a shame that Real are again given a helping hand to reach yet another final. What´s going on with refs in Real matches? This is embarrassing.
DeleteIn case the 2nd situation is acceptable then my mark will be 7.9 (8.3)... Not Cakir's best night but solid overall as always
DeleteAt least two crucial mistakes and you find it solid overall? :)
DeleteTypical double talk that is the norm for many on the blog.
Delete"Referee missed this, this, this and that. But he was good overall". Huh? What? Lol
Yes. Overall Marcelo’s hand will stay in our’s mind despite of great Cakir performance.
ReplyDeleteBecause it's a stonewall penalty.
DeleteI don't know what was great tonight??? He missed probably 2 penalties, missed at least 2 YCs, missed several fouls - for me this performance was far under expectations. 7.4 at most. Also, by no whistling PKs for one side, he decided the winner. Again, it is Real Madrid and the same thing is happening from year to year, from game to game, as I wrote here many, many times! Bayern was much better side in both matches - football is unfair sometimes.
DeleteBayern made a gift to Real for 2-1, we must also underline that, to be honest. They have faults, for sure most of the faults. This is football.
DeleteIt's too difficult. Try reffing a match with such pressure and so many situations. You can't get the calls right. VAR is the only option.
Delete"Death race" who is more quilty, Chefren: Bayern itself or the refs! But, I have to emphasize that both big mistakes (Kuipers and Cakir) were made at the very end of first half times, when the result was 1-1. In case of 2-1 for Bayern at both half times, it would be totally different game in second half!
DeleteDo you think Kuipers and Cakir deliberately turned a blind eye to the decisions?? They are not robots, they are flesh and bones like you and me... These will happen in such high pressure games with so many situations... VAR is the need of the hour!!
Delete@Teo
DeleteThat's your opinion. If you write here and you are convinced that referee make mistakes on purpose it is quite meaningless to discuss. This is not the right place and that's not the aim of this blog.
The real problem is that in Champions League, at this very high level, VAR is absolutely needed and more than mandatory. Nowadays it is impossible to follow a game with such speed for a referee, to keep always an eye to everything. All happens in a too fast way. With technology, all the major incidents would be analyzed by referees and these speculations would end, forever. And let me add, I would be more than content, because now I'm really bored to read always the same things.
That's all.
The worrying thing is that mistakes have helped the same team over the last 2, 3 years. Hopefully it won't become a pattern for the sake of transparency and integrity in competition. VAR should be a priority!
DeleteSo what entities or who in a position of power opposes the introduction of VAR? There has to be some highly influential group standing in the way. What their reasons are? Who knows?
DeleteSheriff,
DeleteI think some leagues have had a difficult time with the implantation. During the times I have seen in Serie A and MLS, too often 50:50 calls (a decision where both sides could be backed) are taken to VAR and it takes a long time and generates a toss up where the call can go either way. VAR was supposed to be intended for "clear and obvious mistakes" (define as you wish) and I don't think it has quite worked out that way.
One thing is for sure: Real cannot complain about referees, especially in matches against Bayern. Unfortunately, Çakir is linked to the outcome of the match with two crucial mistakes.
ReplyDeletePlease see minute 75. Varane. Did it not hit the arm?
ReplyDeleteSo... once again Real Madrid arrives to the final. For sure Cakir (and Kuipers) must be blamed for their errors, but not less than Bayern players who made so many mistakes in these two matches.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I feel to say is that: WE NEED VAR!!! It still has some issues, right, but it would have avoided some blatant errors we saw
I didn't like Çakir tonight. At least one crucial mistake (IMO, two) and lack of dissent prevention. A few YC missing too. Should mean the end of all chances of EL final.
ReplyDeleteTotally agreed. I guess Çakir picked up on his clear mistake at half-time and his feeling of guilt did transpire in his management of the match during second half.
DeleteI see it as you, Steve. Very challenging match. 1 crucial mistake/ missed handball PK. Some little/ wrong foul detections. A bit too defensive line in 2nd half, but all in all acceptable. 7.8(8.2)
ReplyDeleteBut one thing is crystalclear: VAR for Championsleague next season. It's enough now!!!
VAR will help... At least these cries of conspiracy theories will be put to rest to some extent as the clear errors will be eliminated... VAR is a referee's friend and it's a necessity these days!
DeleteI have to be honest but some users here are simply busy finding conspiracy theories against a team and so on with no interest in objective discussion of the referee's performance... This is not good for this blog IMO... This is a refereeing blog and the refereeing decisions should take centre stage and not the same boring discussions about which team is favoured more and all those conspiracy theories... Plus some are only interested in pointing errors by refs and battering them for those... This isn't good as we all are either referees ourselves or refereeing enthusiasts so a minimum amount of empathy really won't do any harm!!
ReplyDeleteIt gets tiring and all too predictable when it's the same team continuously. So can you honestly blame those people?
DeleteTonight I didn’t see things like conspiracies, apart the last post from Sheriff, Soham. Most (if not all) comments pointed out the errors that you have discussed as well!
DeleteCan you or me fix it by whinging day in and day out on this blog if it's indeed a conspiracy going on in large scale?? The answer is obviously No... But we can analyse match situations objectively to increase our knowledge and sharpen our refereeing skills... So what seems more productive out of the two??
Delete@Marco Look around closely and you will know what I'm talking about... I understand Sheriff's point of view in this regard though... But since it's not something in our hand, we shouldn't think too much about it!!
DeleteI am still waiting for some ref to deny my theory and whistle something against Real when he SHOULD DO IT! We are not the advocates of the referees here: when they make mistake, we have to mention that. When they continously make mistakes in favor of one team, we have to mention that, too. Probably this would be third year in a row that Real wins CL with, well significant help. Those are the facts and noone can denies that.
DeleteSpot on, Teo!
DeleteLast year Rizzoli whistled a handball for Bayern Munich and that was a wrong call... So it does happen you see!! Referees at this level, don't have any agenda, they assess what they see and make the best decision possible in good faith... VAR is needed to eliminate clear errors, one or two of which is inevitable in high pressure games!!
Deletewhistle something against Real when he SHOULD DO IT"
Delete@Teo well Cakir handled their match against Atletico last year and then he did gave penalty for Atletico...
So tonight he didnt change his mind tonight and said "I am gonna do my best to try to help Real"..."
He made big mistakes tonight there's no denying but to talk about some conspiracy theories is crazy.
@M, no one is claiming Çakir deliberately helped Real Madrid reach yet another CL final. The point (and btw it is undebatable) is that RM permanently benefit from refereeing decisions, which has been quite clear over the last three years. It is important to really understand what other people are saying and not rush to conclusions!
DeleteCan anyone put up an incident from the 12th min with Ramos and Lewandowski?
ReplyDeleteThe previous one crashes with Oops!your video was not found. Only got to see one poor replay to make a decision :(
Incident with Ramos looks like a clear penalty as the hand in not natural position and fairly outstretched
ReplyDeleteAnd it happened inside
With another incident between Ramos and Lewandowski, Ramos did not touch the ball but Lewandowski's right boot was going down. Than wheather a penalty or free kick to Real if Lewandowski played in danger manner with his right foot
I would say either are would be supported
No real view for the first incident while hand ball was blatant :(
Nobody talks about Benzema. His leg got clipped and he fell. Should have been a PK.
ReplyDeleteWhich incident are you on about?
DeleteThe situation when it looked like it was shoulder to shoulder but it wasn't. His leg got tackled.
DeleteMarcelo hand ball I meant, not Ramos ;)
ReplyDeleteCheck this out:
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/yousefalbalus17/status/991422762009886725
Third penalty missed.
I can't find footage of the incident from first half between these two players.
On that replay it looks clear enough that another penalty was missed !
DeleteLewandowski played the ball, Ramos completly missed it and fall onto Lewandowski
Far more penalty the the famous one against Juve which I rather supported myself
Again: I grew up being Bayernfan and standing in the southern corner in Munich. But there is definitely no need for conspiracy theories. Look where Cakir was standing in the handball-situation. He could only see Marcelo's back - and was left alone by his assistants. And he definitely was not bad tonight - bad luck for him and Bayern and that's it. Life goes on and Cakir stays one of the best european referees of our time. The way Bayern players handled the situation was gentlemanlike. Some here can definitely learn from them. Remember how one of the best refs of modern times, Anders Frisk had to get up his career to protect his and his familie's lives. 99,9 % of the referees just do what they can to judge fair and wisely, to protect the players' health and the beautiness of our beloved game. Which still is a game. So I hope that some guys here use less time for JUDGING sportsmen instead of criticizing mistakes but supporting the guys who have enough pressure and need solidarity and fair criticism.
ReplyDeleteAgreed on Cakir's inability to correctly asses Marcelo's handling. However, why is UEFA literally throwing away it's money paying AAR's to simply stand around? Too many incidents involving AAR's this season to continue justifying their use.
DeleteTo add: In the post-match interviews and analysis in German TV (ZDF) the referee decisions were not mentioned at all. (The handball incident was shortly discussed and judged as mistake at half time).
DeleteCakir can be somehow lucky about that.
When a ball change direction vertical to the ground it's because of a contact with the hand. Otherwise, from a contact with the body, it's impossible for a ball to be deflected in direction of the ground.
DeleteAn Elite referee should know that....
That's not the problem. The problem is evaluating if it's punishable or not... I am talking about in general not just this situation.
DeleteAR2? AAR2? No input from either?
Deletehttps://twitter.com/GeniusFootball/status/991427775486726144
DeleteWow! With that image, there is zero ways to justify not one of the three making the call. I'm at a loss for words to find a reason why this was missed.
DeleteI understand that Cakir was the man in the middle. But why are we giving AR2 and the AAR2 a "free pass" on Marcelo's handling? Did they not have a better view on that play than Cakir?
ReplyDeleteI agree. Everybody heaping all the blame on Cakir is unfair. His incompetent or unwilling AR2 and AAR2 should shoulder some if not more of the blame on Marcelo's handling.
DeleteAs I said after Mateu's performance, VAR is a must. Tonight, although Çakir had more problems with disciplinary measures too, it would have solved a very critical situation. Yes, VAR needs to improve. But... don't the advantages already overtake the problems? I think clubs should really start pushing for it (Bayern specially after last year and tonight).
ReplyDeleteFor such a situation VAR is not necessary. But it's necessary to have capable referees who are not afraid to take important decisions.
DeleteFor me this handball was not difficult to see.
For this situation, VAR is necessary. It is a clear, blatant mistake that can be corrected. Any other consideration about being afraid of things, I won't comment, as that is something neither you or me can know.
DeleteGeorge,
DeleteThree, yes three. Not one, not two. Three sets of eyes all missed it? Yeah okay, totally believable and acceptable.
Yet another season with AAR's. And it's another season of wanting to know what exactly is the purpose of having them. Too many incidents where AAR's stand around looking lost and useless. Stop wasting money on useless "mannequins" and invest in VAR.
DeleteBTW Sheriff, that's a great pic you got. The IGAF that you're Ronaldinho attitude by Ramos Rizo as he correctly sends him off is amazing! Similar to when Brizio Carter correctly sent off Zidane in '98. Love it!
Match incidents
ReplyDelete03' - handling (for educational purpose)
https://streamable.com/t1p9p
17' - penalty incident
https://streamable.com/775mk
25', 90+5' - stealing metres, inconsistency
https://streamable.com/ohtkl
45+2' - handling penalty incident
https://streamable.com/8mpbs
49' - penalty incident
https://streamable.com/brh0t
52' - penalty incident
https://streamable.com/42nak
67' - manufacturing drop ball (did the second ball really impacted play?)
https://streamable.com/fblf7
75' - handling
https://streamable.com/14jqz
By book or strictly applying LotG, he could have whistled 4 penalties to Bayern. In my opinion, the most blatant situation remains the one at 45'+2. At least one crucial mistake, with some chances to be backed by observer regarding the other incidents.
Delete3' undeliberate handball. The ball comes from a deflection of its own body when he is not looking at it. Anyway, the goal makes it unimportant.
Delete17'. IMO, that's a penalty. Yes, Ramos plays the ball, but he keeps his left leg going and brings Lewandowski to the ground when it is not necessary. Also, the way the ball is deflected from Ramos means that there were some chances Lewandowski could have attempted to play it.
25', 90+5'. That inconsistency is pretty obviously caused by Real Madrid fans screaming loudly. Point for improvement, both in the need of consistency and on not being influenced by the crowds.
45+2'. Penalty.
49'. I have my doubts, as Benzema obviously wants to fall, but there is a contact by the defender (Hummels?) which although it seems rather undeliberate, could have tripped Benzema. Not a clear situation, but a penalty could have been given.
52'. Arguments for and against. For me, play on.
67'. Another point for improvement. The second ball did not impact play (yet) and so he shouldn't have stopped it. Also the execution is suboptimal. He impides Marcelo from playing the ball. A referee should not decide whether the ball has to be returned or played.
75'. Still, my impression is that the ball goes deflected from the knee and then impacts on James. It is very difficult to see from these angles. In real motion, I think impossible to detect for everyone except Çakir himself. However, if a penalty has actually been missed, the card colour should be discussed too. It was a shoot on goal with very short distance. It could have been DOGSO.
Greetings.
17' still looks suspicious to me, but IMO none of the perspectives shown ca proof anything there
Delete52' for me rather penalty, but no clear mistake
75' Also here no proofs by the replays. In one of them it looks very much like handball, but in the others not. Also no complaints on the pitch. Regarding card colour: IMO for DOGSO the player needs to be at least in the goal area (or no GK in goal), otherwise the chance for the keeper is high enough to make it only SPA.
Finally a video of ''75. I knew I was right. Clearly a PK. He saves the shot with his arms. Good clips.
ReplyDeleteSo how many penalties missed overall?? :(
DeleteWell in my opinion 4 black/white clear ones that I think if VAR was available would have been called.
DeleteMarcelo handling
Benzema situation
Varande Handling
Ramos tackle
What does these calls make of Cakir's marks now?? In what range will his marks end in case all 4 are evaluated as crucial mistakes??
DeleteYet still "solid performance overall", right?
DeleteI guess it would be -0.5x4?. The lowest is 6.0 that you can get. 8.4 - 2.0= 6.4 I guess. If they think 4 penalties were missed.
DeleteIn the replay I don't see a clear penalty. It seems to me that he touches with the knee.
Deletelook in slow motion. hits the arm and then bounces on the bayern player.
DeleteHere is the moment
Deletehttps://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/31786476_1865889223463269_4970160013474529280_n.png?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=v1%3AAeEBgq8BJdl0BxYjsUjg7qByoQn8rEL1svZ92CUIEXiYN2EWpxNNQNGNNuIddf77WTARETERTShWcmrkC4H1XEEdAns6yLgfR5x6BrkHWwHnfw&oh=4933dfc1e37cc058d709b939165f4779&oe=5B9065EB
I don't think we should be worry of Cakir's future. With any mark he would get CL semifinal next year, hopefully Real's match :-) And this year's EL final, why not.
DeleteI could imagine what would be comments here if instead of Cakir those decisions were made by Mazic, Turpin or Mateu...
Teo,
DeleteThat's the story and "line" of this blog. Similar situations viewed in manner that benefits their faves and crucifies the ones who aren't.
Guys, we have to be honest. My gosh, Çakir fell flat. I'm so sorry to say so but this is way too much. I hadn't seen Varrane's spectacular save. Speechless.
DeleteYet people are always grandstanding, preaching and asking for objectivity. Regardless of who the referee is. Laughable.
DeleteA performance with four crucial mistakes is 6,9 IIRC. Three CMs is 7,1.
DeleteBut I find it laughable that you think he missed four penalties. If he awarded the situations on Lewandowski and Benzema that you speak about, Çakir would be killed
the in debrief (and now I am waiting for the inevitable insightful comment that he would be killed because it's Real Madrid etc.)
Maybe we can talk about a lesser quality this season by UEFA's referees, but also a decrease in quality of the comments of this blog, which I am sad to say.
Everything comes in cycles, does anyone remember "UEFAlona" after especially Stark's excellent CL, now everyone says "UEFAdrid". You are all just sheep to the most popularistic ideas if you really believe in a conspiracy theory, for sure RM have benefitted from some referee decisions in the last three years, but please tell me WHY that UEFA would actively help Real Madrid.
A clear case of Occam's/Hanlon's razor, not a conspiracy.
I find it laughable that you can’t produce a comment in a respectful manner. Many agree several penalties were missed. You don’t agree because you don’t apply the laws of the game.
DeletePersonally for me the Lewandowski first situation and Benzema situation are not penalties... The Marcelo Handball and Ramos tackles are penalties!!
DeleteI agree, Soham. One can even say that Ramos-Lewandowski incident is not a 100% foul, too (direction in which Lewandowski is running, starting to fall by jumping from his left, unattacked leg).
Delete@Victor "laughable" was not the best choice of words, apologies. This was definitely posted here but an excellent read IMO:
Deletehttp://www.psychref.org/2018/01/the-referee-as-game-manager.html
Rubbish reading. Those were wasted minutes of my life that I will never get back. Anything to make enforcing The Law's of the Game optional, right?
DeleteWell, I've read some comments here (always from the same users) that I can only find senseless and ridiculous (no offence meant).
DeleteWhen a referee commits 2 or 3 crucial mistakes in a CL SF match (!!) and still you got some people saying his performance was by and large good, acceptable or solid, then this blog can't be taken seriously. If a referee is chosen to officiate a clash as important as this one, he's perceived and believed to be the cream of the crop, one of the brightest among so many, a man trusted by the Committee, players, managers and other agents of the football universe. There must be a proven reason why he's the one standing in the middle of the pitch instead of other officials who have been demoted or still aspire to get there. In any organisation, when someone is not up to the mark, then that person has to be held accountable. I call it common sense and that's what happens everywhere.
I even read someone suggesting a sort of a filter for users who "dare" to criticise a referee when he gives such a bad account of himself like Çakir did yesterday. Good and responsible referees are the first ones calling for criticism (as long as it is respectful and constructive) in order for them to better their performances. A referee must be fully aware a crucial mistake might impact mega-investments and therefore they have to be prepared to deal with any kind of reactions. This is a high-level job that has lots of advantages but refs must also be able to deal with the bad side of it. That's what life is all about, after all. The exculpatory language some users defend and want to see spread over here is a total nonsense: if you want a blog intended to deliver panegyrics on refs (without any critical thinking) in spite of their blatant mistakes, I'm sure you're turning it into a completely useless platform that is not stimulating. At the end of the day, the blog risks being a corporative vehicle removing every user that is not aligned with the reigning strategy.
What I find laughable is that the majority of the bloggers are apologists and okay with referees accepting and not with dissenters. Yet when a person dares express any sort of dissenting views on the blog, they are admonished. Just further goes to show how truly two faced most bloggers are. They try to mold and dictate situations in a manner that would most benefit those who they like.
DeleteUnfortunately Çakir was not well today. Maybe what could be happening with some referees like kuipers and çakir is that they forgot that they did not have the var and let them follow the moves since they were not sure to mark those dubious moves
ReplyDeleteI am curious about the input from people on this blog. For most games, the refereeing has been acceptable this year. On some occasions this year in the KO Round, the "big" names have had some tough times. Marciniak with Tottenham-Juventus, Rocchi in Madrid-PSG, Cakir tonight, Kuipers (Bayern-Madrid), Lahoz (Man City-Liverpool) and you could add to the list.
ReplyDeleteWhile I do understand the bigger names are getting the bigger and tougher games, why do you think they are struggling a bit? Is the committee not appointing the appropriate style official to the right game? Is the committee sending referees to games when it is too early in their refereeing career? Is there a lack of pre-match guidance? Is the way the game is being played changing and maybe that's way someone like Turpin as had more success this year (a referee on the up)?
It just seems like this year more than usual, the quality at times as been lacking.
More pressure than ever before and too much focus on keeping 11 men on the firld instead of actually following the laws of the game 100%.
DeleteRocchi, Kuipers and Lahoz didn't have a bad night overall at all in the games you mentioned except one error or some small things for each... Cakir also had one or two penalty missed but otherwise it was overall very much acceptable... In fast paced games these mistakes will happen and we need VAR for that!!
DeleteCakir, Rocchi and Kuipers all 3 had solitary problem with penalty award and Mateu Lahoz with the offside decision... In presence of VAR all the clear errors would be corrected and all the 4 referees would basically have spotless performances with good management... Only Marciniak had a overall poor night but even his missed penalty and missed RC would be corrected by VAR... VAR is a referee's friend and it is mandatory at this level to ensure fair decisions when it is obvious that a mistake is made... The advantages of VAR are currently far outweigh the disadvantages and in today's modern day fast-paced games VAR is a necessity for eliminating clear mistakes and reducing some pressure on the referee!!
Delete
ReplyDeleteEven Marcelo accepts that it was a penalty.
And also Ramos made penalty to Lewandoski
ReplyDeleteRamos also accepts it?
DeleteThats never a penalty
DeleteSorry if this comment will be long, but after yesterday, as blog administrator, I need to clarify again some things.
ReplyDeleteThis blog has the main aim to talk about refereeing. International refereeing, performances, appointments, discussions, situations, suggestions, sharing opinions and so on.
Unluckily there is a tendancey by some users to go against the (unwritten) rules of the blog. They always talk about referees mistakes, they emphasize that referees make mistakes on purpose, maybe, always against the same teams and in favor of other teams.
Even, they dare to say that their theories are facts.
I must strongly take the distance from that. I'm more than disappointed to read always the same things from the same people.
I have repeated it many times: I don't like / I don't want to ban, censor, close discussions and so on. But at a certain point I realize that the freedom of speech for some people is something too big. Please, at least, realize that you are writing on a referee community, here we all share a big passion. We watch games, we analyze incidents, we discuss, we draw conclusions, but we will never be against referees.
I could remove comments, but that would be more than useless, because other people could be back again with the same opinions and write again. So the only solution would be to close everything and say "bye", because it is impossible to keep a blog in these conditions.
I really don't know what to do, I'm sad and maybe it was not a good thing to open this new blog.
Of course most of the readers and the comments here are great, and maybe this helps me in going on.
Thanks for having read this comment.
A very disappointed admin.
I completely understand your feelings and the reason for disappointment... I hope these people behave themselves :(
DeleteUnfortunately, this has been ongoing for a while now. And not just in this blog, but also on the previous one. It is a shame that Blogger doesn't offer the necessary tools to ban users that show inappropriate behaviour repeatedly. I would ask those users to rethink about their actions. And those who are directly trolls, to go away.
DeleteI hope you decide to keep going, because I love this blog and all the debates that we have here with those users (the majority) who actually have the ability to reason and not just repeat mantras all over the place.
Best wishes,
George.
So true, Chefren.
DeleteSometimes it's really difficult to read so many comments filled with hokum.
The time when we were discussing everything in a very analytical way, when we were posting small reports / feelings after performances (even in niche games) seems to be over... We have much more comments nowadays but their quality is often, sorry but it's true, poor.
Of course, there is the freedom of speech, but well, it's not always good for the quality of forums, blogs, etc.
A pity because so many referees (also these with white badges) read us and they are surely disappointed.
And I understand your disappointing, Chefren, because we can do nothing, just ask for objectivity and analyticity. The blog (or forum?) is surely needed. Some valuable, insightful comments from our users should be published and read by many of us.
Regards to all!
Maybe a stricter deletion policy would be worth a try?
DeleteAt least for every comment, which does not follow the principles, which you have described. Maybe even for "low quality" comments, e.g. those containing from one sentence (or less), which just state something, without reasons/explanations.
And freedom of speech is one thing, but as a blog owner you also have the right to define a "netiquette" and demand a certain quality of comments. Different opinions can still be allowed then.
Of course, feel free to ignore this suggestion, if you don't like it, Chefren :)
I understand every single of your thoughts and feelings currently, Chefren. This blog (such as the previous one) is a place for objective and analytical debates on refereeing, match incidents and everything related to it. I regret that - especialy in the past weeks - many users use it to diffuse their conspiracy theories and only try to emphasize the mistakes of referees. It appears to me - I may be wrong - as if specific users are only waiting for big mistakes in order to feel justified to post - sorry for the use of the strong word, but I couldn’t find anything else - bullshit! This obviously takes away from the quality of this blog. I’ve been reading this blog (and the previous one) now for about four years and I regret where this is currently going, but I hope that things will become better and that the blog is heading back in the right direction. But I would support the idea of a “netiquette” brought forward by @Philipp S.
DeleteI know that I am not posting that much on here as other users (due to a tight schedule), but I always appreciate the constructive inputs of this community, when I post match situations on here, because they help me personally as well to refine my refereeing skills and they lead sometimes to intensive discussion about application of LotG: this is as well what the blog should be about, having a plurality of opinions, as long as they are justified in a correct manner. It’s not and it should never be a place to “kill” referees for mistakes they did!
Regards to everyone!
Some comments:
Delete1. In the poll, 21% of responders considered Cakir's performance (at least) "good.expected level of performance". That's really sad, it says a lot about the level of some readers of this blog (I'm not afraid to use harsh words)
2. @Chefren
You are the administrator of this blog, I can say you are an influencer. I think you have to decide about the purpose of this blog. It's about to discuss the performances of referees or to defend the performances of referees ?
I saw that you try hardly to defend the referees. You enlarged too much the "grey area". Too many situations are for you "supportable", "borderline" etc. I see too much tolerance with the mistakes of referees. They are Elite referees, they are paid (preety well) to deliver (very) good performances. A good performance should be a normal thing for them.
3. We have or we don't have principles here, on this blog ?
For me it's unacceptable that someone can even think (not accept) that Marciniak should whistle a SF after Tottenham- Juventus. Honestly, how it's possible to reward a referee with a SF after such a disastrous performance ? What signal gives PLC with such behaviour ? What motivation will have the rest of referees (from Europe) when they see that principle of (good) performance doesn't matter ?
I don't have time right now to write more but are a lot of things to be said. I will be back in next days with a longer post.
Thank you all for the answers.
DeleteI have really appreciated every comment and suggestion!
@petschovschi to answer to your specific questions:
Of course the aim of the blog is to discuss about referees performances, not to defend them. We can give our opinions, we can say referee was right, was wrong, and so on. Otherwise, it would be a nosense being here to write only in favor of referees for everything. Even from the harsh criticisms there can be something to learn. But the main point is another one: I don't like when, in addition to underline mistakes, some users say that referees made them just to protect a team. I will be always against this point of view, because in my opinion it is simply something unaccpetable. If we start from the assumption that a referee has not a free mind on the pitch, we should close the blog soon, and we should also be denounced. Instead, the most interesting discussions can be about the origin, the cause, the reason of a mistake. Referees reading the blog can learn. We can underline mistakes, that's not forbidden, but we must draw some lessons.
Also, there is a tendency by some users (I'm not directly talking about you, to be clear) to write only in case of mistakes by referees, with the aim to highlight them, to blame the officials, by assuming an annoying approach for other readers. I don't know if you are (were?) a referee, but if so, you should fully get the point, even in case you were just an amateur referee. There should be a spirit while we talk about the incidents, helping us to analyze them, in a very positive way. Mistakes will be always done, that's nothing new. So, for a better discussion, instead of writing (for example): "How many mistakes, always in favor of XXX team, why?" We could write: "There were these mistakes, clear, obvious, by referee this evening, why?". And then an explanation should come. Focus should be on referees, not on football teams and all the rest.
That's why you have very often many attempts to explain and understand a referee decision by saying "supportable, supportable"... and so on... I hope it is clear now.
As long as I find even a small reason for doing that, I will back a referee, but believe me, I try to be always objective.
The principles of this blog should be the ones we have inside our minds... are you willling to respect other people's opinions?
The main question is: it's enough a small reason to back a referee or we need a decent reason in order to do that ? If we use small reasons to defend a referee than we enlarge to much that "grey area".
DeleteThese games are seen by a lot of people, including young referees. What will say a young referee when he see that Kuipers doesn't book CR7 two times (simulation in 1st half, ball stopped with the hand in very good position to score in 2nd half) ? We should write these thing, we should not tolerate such approach of Kuipers. That's my point of view.
Btw, I forgot to say: I liked a lot Turpin in Arsenal- Atletico. A referee with strong personality who was not afraid to take important decisions early in the game !
DeleteI agree with you about Kuipers, indeed you can read on the previous posts that I didn't like his officiating, for me acting in that way is more something like a manager than a referee, clear cards must be always issued. There is a manner in which it is possible to say and discuss, also making important criticisms, about everything.
DeleteI liked Turpin as well!
Let's see whether in future we will agree again about other performances!
Moreover it's a personal point of view about who prefers what style... I would never in a million years be a fan of Turpin's over officious style and I'll never adopt that style either... I always prefer Kuipers' style and that's a style which can be adopted only by referees with a lot of personality and charisma... All best referees of the generation like Cakir, Webb, Rizzoli are on are great managers and Webb's insight on when to give a YC based on temperature of the game was fantastic to hear... The referees who don't have the quality of man management and good communication are the over officious ones... It's on the individual referees to devise a style which is more comfortable and no one can enforce on someone that this is the right style or that is... A referee should have the full liberty to carry on with his own style as long as it works and nobody can dare to say it shouldn't be "tolerated" etc... Just a small example, Marco Rodriguez advocated highly of Kuipers' officiating style in Munich so it is well accepted and will be "tolerated" even in the future!!
Delete@the 21% in the poll: The reason might be, that you could assign the handball mistake to the AR and AAR. Then it would not influence Cakir's mark. Even the Ramos/Lewandowski incident could be the AAR's responsibility.
DeleteSo the referee team as a whole should surely be evaluated worse, but for Cakir alone a mark around 8.3 does not seem so impossible to me.
Someone always can find an alibi for a referee. But that's not good. Everything over 7.8 for Cakir is lack of common sense imo....
DeleteI get your point @Chefren and I encourage you to be even harder with some comments. On the other hand, I don’t like the a priori ref defenders. And I’d like some clarification. I’m not a referee, I’m just an enthusiast. What do you mean with “expected level”? I don’t understand why sometimes here I read things like “if we ignore that huge mistake, it’s an expected level performance”. I’m not sarcastic, I just want to understand!
ReplyDeleteThanks for your work
Thanks, "expected level" is the assessment of a performance by referee as it should be on standard level.
DeleteFor example, a match without any issue, with a good officiating, but in a not difficult context, is an expected level. UEFA has 8.3 and 8.4 as marks for this level.
You can reach a higher mark (very good / excellent) or a lower mark (below expected level, poor performance and so on).
In this picture, you can read the official assessments by UEFA, for a referee:
https://s7.postimg.cc/92njn1ror/image.jpg
That's about mark from referee observer. 7.9 means 'one crucial mistake, otherwise good, expected level'. Assessing the referee performance you should focus on two big factors - key match incidents and overall way of handling the game (had the referee full control over the game, was he consistent, did he missed any OBVIOUS yellow cards, which elements were judged correctly and which wrongly by the referee). It's not only about key match incidents (every referee will make mistakes assessing them) but also about control, management, foul detection, etc.
DeleteOf course, the perfomance of a referee is assessed taking in consideration many facts. But, from logical point of view, it's a non-sense to use the term "expected level" when referee made a clear mistake.
DeleteNot, really. It's 'one crucial mistake, OTHERWISE good, expected level'.
DeleteIndeed, the specification means that one must take the "crucial mistake" as clear and committeed, and then, APART FROM THAT, an expected level.
DeleteMark is 7.9, otherwise 8.4 but it is not a 8.4.
So here the difference and the crucial mistake surely gets an importance for the observer.
Phrases or words like "expected level" "full acceptance" "full control" "grey area" "supportable" "50-50" "borderline" "orange card" are all disguised excuses for referee mistakes. But then again, depending on who the referee is, and how many fans he or she has on this blog.
DeleteThose are all official to semi-official terminologies!!
DeleteI prefer "wrong" "correct" "pass" "fail" "fit" "unfit"
Delete"Expected level" when a referee commits at least 2 crucial mistakes determining the outcome of the match is nonsensical, to say the least.
DeleteChefren, first of all thank you for the great work around this blog. I really appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteI fully understand your point of view, the discussions in this blog took a bad direction in the last time. I'm also bored by some meaningless comments and dissappointed by some harsh and maybe even insulting comments. That is also the main reason why I am not commenting that often here. For a good discussion you need several opinions, but I really don't like it when people don't understand (or not even try to do so) the view of others and the only right solution is their own opinion about a situation. Therefore, a good discussion is nearly impossible.
But I would like to emphasize how much other people (Chefren, RayHD, Mikael, Philipp and some others) are writing great comments in this blog which are always a pleasure to read.
For sure it is important to talk about mistakes and how they could happen, but that should happen in a appropiate way. Such mistake hunters are really boring.
I'm sure that many, many people are reading threw this blog and I hope you'll carry on Chefren. Perhaps it would be wiser when meaningless, insulting or unfriendly comments are simply ignored by all other users. IMO this answers to a comment motivates the author to write another bad comment.
But, it is as on the pitch, you have always to deal with different people with different views :)
And I will accept them as long as they aren't insulting somebody and written in an objective and friendly way.
I can only agree with all participants of our discussion. Biggest part of this blog are referees, some are enthusiasts like me, but all of us should respect the main rules of this blog. It`s a great pleasure to enter this site uncountable times per day and to read Yours opinions. Thanks to Chefren who continues a hard work on this blog and makes it better every day. I hope we will see a great FIFA World Cup from the referees in a few weeks and we`ll speak only about marks like 8,4 or higher;) Thanks for all writers
ReplyDeleteContinue in the same spirit;)
When we step foot on the pitch, is everything always good, pleasant and positive? No! We deal with the good and the bad. We deal with negative attitudes. We deal with bad situations. We have to cope and move on when we make mistakes. We have to put up with players pointing out what they perceive to be our mistakes. So the pitch is definitely not our "safe place". So why should this blog be a "safe place" for these referee's? We're (at least I am) able to deal with what comes with being the man in the middle. I'm sure these pampered and protected referee's can also deal with some criticism. If they're unable to or are too thin skinned. Then they may need to find another hobby. Because that's what this is for many if not most of them. A hobby. For most, their livelihood doesn't depend on them being a referee.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think any UEFA Elite referee will be losing his sleep over your comments?? Why they be even bothered by what you think?? Now you're currently launching a kind of personal attack on referees... Unacceptable!!
DeleteSoham, please keep cool :)
DeleteSheriff said his opinion. He said that the he is sure that the referees are able to deal with some critism. I don't think that his comment is unacceptable, there had been some unacceptable comments in the past but this one isn't, at least for me. He has his own opinion and we have to respect that, as we have to respect that you like Kuipers very much.
So keep cool and enjoy Skomina ;)
Yeah okay... Enjoying Skomina is a better option... You're right :D
DeleteAt no point in my comment where I expressed my opinion did I make reference to any UEFA Elite Referee caring and/or losing sleep over my comments. That's a conclusion that you pulled out of your..... Nor do I see where I on a personal level attacked any referee.
DeleteSeems to me that the only one with thin skin is Soham. But that was made more than clear when he threatened to quit the blog over people pointing out to him his fanboy blindness and status.
Sheriff, so true, he doesn't get it. Don't waste your time :)
DeleteThreat?? Why should the blog even care about me?? I'm here for the blog... The blog isn't here for me... This blog has many followers and certainly me staying or not would hardly make any difference... Get over your wrong ideas... I've no business in threatening anyone
DeleteYou guys are all so petty!
ReplyDelete