Discussion: Daniele Orsato performance in 2019-20 UEFA Champions League final.
Paris Saint-Germain FC (FRA) - FC Bayern München (GER)
Referee: Daniele Orsato (ITA)
Assistant Referee 1: Lorenzo Manganelli (ITA)
Assistant Referee 2: Alessandro Giallatini (ITA)
Fourth Official: Ovidiu Hațegan (ROU)
Video Assistant Referee: Massimiliano Irrati (ITA)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Marco Guida (ITA), Alejandro Hernández Hernández (ESP)
Offside Video Assistant Referee: Roberto Díaz Pérez Del Palomar (ESP)
UEFA Referee Observer: Vladimir Šajn (SVN)
UEFA Delegate: Kris Bellon (BEL)
UEFA Delegate: Kris Bellon (BEL)
UEFA Referee Liaison Officers: Mauro Quaresma (POR), Fábio José Costa Veríssimo (POR)
Excuse me,what are UEFA referee liaison officers?
ReplyDeletehttp://latestnewsofworldfootballs.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-role-of-uefa-referee-liaison-officer.html
DeleteInteresting fact - Felix Brych was the Referee Liaison Officer for München at World Cup 2006.
DeleteKits tonight?
ReplyDeleteMy prediction is yellow.
DeleteParis in dark blue and Bayern in red IMO exclude the rest of kits except maybe the neon blue.
IIRC, PSG are playing in dark blue and yellow(GK) and Bayern in Red and Gray (GK) so my bet is on light blue.
DeleteYellow kits!!!
DeleteI’m happy it’s yellow instead of light blue. Light blue could work, but yellow always looks really nice against a blue and red matchup
DeleteGood luck, Daniele Orsato and his team !
ReplyDeleteGood luck to Daniele Orsato and his team. I was not sure whether he is the right man for this match, but I wish him all the best. Let's hope we'll see a great match with a great refereeing performance.
ReplyDeleteNot a fan of AR1 flagging technique
ReplyDeleteAgree
DeleteWhat do you mean?
DeleteHe holds the flag with his fingers, not in his hand
DeleteCalm first 15 minutes. Players concentrate on playing football.
ReplyDeleteWhy such long whistle blasts? Nit needed
ReplyDeleteGood start, trying to keep it going
Did well with late whistle for defensive fk
Italian style, taught from grassroots level, considered as symbol of strength.
DeleteAnd very annoying! German referees tend to use their whistle in the same way.
DeleteCorrect first YC of the game, in cooperation with AR1.
ReplyDeleteCorrect first YC for SPA in 28'.
ReplyDeleteMissed corner
ReplyDeleteMissed corner but i thought it was gk on first viewing
ReplyDeleteCorrect YC, but how couls he missed that corner kick it was very blatant. But it doesn't really matter, it is a small mistake, first 30 minutes very good Orsato.
ReplyDeleteMistake is mistake but it do not cost the game result. So go on, we dont know who officiating tonight.
DeleteGreat Lorenzo Manganelli. One of the few ARs nowadays who dares to have his own flag technique who fits him and a personality.
ReplyDeleteMissed yc for Mbappe (asking for a card opponent)
ReplyDeleteDon't be silly expecting such a yellow card in a CL final
DeleteOnly Brych has that type of courage.
DeleteJust because camera saw it does not mean referee did
DeleteAgree with Anonymus there...
DeleteSurely the most interesting incident of first half occurred 10 seconds before final whistle. No penalty, good decision by Orsato, not enough for a whistle.
ReplyDeleteI agree, good decision
DeleteThis is never a penalty, excellent Orsato!
ReplyDeleteEasygoing first half for Orsato. Correct no penalty decision in 45+1', indeed Coman tried to get a penalty, but it was not enough.
ReplyDeleteAnd done with a smile
ReplyDeleteIMO correct decisiom by Orsato, again quick check by VAR.
ReplyDeleteI fully agreed
DeletePenalty would be absolutely supportable, but I think we should respect Orsato's decision.
DeleteVery well Orsato in the first half
ReplyDeleteVery easy first half, one must say. Not the game I expected, however, given the two teams involved.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, we expected a totally different match. Let's see what players do in second half.
DeleteBoth teams are too smart and skilled to foul much, so a very well played and straight forward first half. The one thing I'd like to focus on is the possibility of expanding VAR. A PSG player took a shot on goal, and everyone watching the reply saw that it went off a Bayern player, but a goal kick was given. Wouldn't this be a great situation in which to use VAR?
ReplyDeleteIn case Orsato had whistled the penalty in the last incident of first half, I think VAR should have supported the call (due to hands on the back) and we would have had a big discussion. Rewatching the incident, we can surely praise referee because live one could have been deceived.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason hawk-eye on Croatian tv, including comentators, said it wqs a clear penalty. I must say sometimes I am not sure if we are all watching the same game...
DeleteAs smala017 said in the later comment, in live one couls easily say that is a penalty, but with video replay how you can say it is a clear penalty??
DeleteThe simplest possible explanation is that it is a penalty. Attacker was quicker and defender arm's place should definitely not be attacker's shoulder.
DeleteWith Strahonja I often have that impression :), but here I even expected more debate here. I would even dare to say that in normal league game the majority would whistle that.
Agree Forlan with you that in live, penalty would be called but with VAR and replayes for several angles I think it is not such a clear situation to say it is 100% penalty.
DeleteRegarding the penalty shout just before half time, I think in real time, that's a penalty I would typically call, because calling it is the "easy" decision with the hand on the shoulder there. But looking at the replay I actually think the better decision was to not call it; the arm is there, but he doesn't actually pull back or hold at all. Well done Orsato!
ReplyDeleteGerman TV expert speaks of a 'very clear penalty' in half time. That's laughable and not objective.
ReplyDeleteFully agree
DeleteThe same here in Croatia.
DeleteAs I said, I am sometimes not sure if we are all watching the same match??
Also saw this; he also mentioned that the referee should have given a YC to Marquinhos for a „clear“ SPA and that he doesn‘t like Orsato. Neven seen such a biases expert...
DeleteSame thing in Serbia. Tv expert saying it was a clear penalty.
DeleteWell, the 'expert' is a former Munich player. That says everything.
DeleteA new replay on BT shows a very small clip on Coman's foot before he went down.
ReplyDeleteThat's about the 4th such "micro-clip" we've seen not called in this CL/EL tournament and the VAR has supported the referee each time, very consistent from UEFA
47 : clear missed foul on Mbappé. Dangerous FK forgotten.
ReplyDeleteMy biggest pet peeve of referees is gesturing to a player to "get up" after not calling a possible foul. It just smacks of arrogance in my view.
ReplyDeleteI really don't see the penalty decision as clear, as others.
ReplyDeleteKehrer throws himself in his opponent after failing to hold. Still for me no penalty in a final.
These UEFA Match Official badges are surely not the best innovation, after Taylor, Orsato has lost it as well right now.
ReplyDeleteRefs drop their FIFA badge fairly frequently too... but for the superstitious out there, is this a bad omen? :P
DeleteNow there are emotions. Mass confrontation. Orsato stays passive.
ReplyDeleteParedes te lo dico in italiano, devi venire tu qua da me.
ReplyDelete=
Paredes, I say it in Italian to you, you must come here.
We must also praise Thiago Silva behaviour, backing Orsato’s choice in front of his teammate
DeleteReally unwise not to stop after the first collision before the ball was thrown, Orsato really should have clocked the tactical importance of that, even if the players didn't react to that incident at first. Now you saw the results.
ReplyDeleteHard criticism but - this is the CL Final.
Game is heating up. So far Orsato still calm and with two correct YC for Gnabry and Paredes. We’ll enjoy the 2H
ReplyDeleteSorry but poor management by Orsato with double YC cards. Very lenient approach the first time with Gnabry. No clear authority and players don’t calm down. Gnabry had to be booked the first Time...
ReplyDeleteOh come on...
DeleteNice to see your clears arguments...
DeleteThey’re right in the comment above... what’s wrong with the two YC?
DeleteI don‘t think that the first foul was YC worthy. We all know how Neymar sometimes behaves and by giving a YC for the first foul on him gives a wrong message IMO. Second foul is yellow, that was a gift for Orsato.
Delete@Jonas exactly
DeleteThat Sule yellow seems a bit harsh to me; good for management purposes sure, but was it really reckless?
ReplyDeleteRather a tactical caution. I think it was a wise choice in order to calm the match down.
DeleteIndeed, more a Smart caution. Still, supportable
DeleteSüle never had a chance to play the ball and just kicked through his opponent.
DeleteScope to assess it as careless too but no problem with theoretically deciding it reckless - and as you said tactically valuable too.
For me it's only a normal foul (charging), where the opponent exaggerated the impact. This YC seems very harsh to me, bordering to wrong.
DeleteImo wrong caution to Sule
ReplyDeleteThat was a clear YC for Lewandowski
ReplyDeleteVery strange foul to assess, he's just stepping normally, BUT he does hand on the opponent's leg, BUT the contact is glancing... probably more of a YC for me but a very strange one.
DeleteNo way :) accidentally hit, nothing more. No will to harm.
DeleteYou can’t call it clear. It was totally accidental. A YC could be acceptable, but never clear
DeleteWhy not? It was a stamp on achilles tendon. Have you ever experienced that pain? Obviously not....
DeletePain is no reason for cautioning :D
DeleteThe action was primarily caused by the PSG player with his attempt to slide. The FCB Player just stepped where he thought gras was. That's not reckless, because he didn't want to harm his opponent
I disagree that. If you make foul with itention to harm your opponent then it is not a YC but it is a RC. For me that was reckless and therefore it was missed YC.
DeleteAcceptance is an intention as well, which is penalised per lotg as reckless
DeleteWe agree to disagree on this situation :)
Delete:)
DeleteClip?
DeleteClear YC missed at Lewandoski. Cristal one...
ReplyDeletePenalty for me.
ReplyDeleteClose situation... he doesn‘t play the ball
DeleteWell, here’s an issue: even here we have a small contact, maybe not enough for a penalty, not even Mbappe complained. BUT, Orsato pointed the ball and Kimmich never touched the ball.
ReplyDeleteAny clip on that penalty shout for Mbappe?
ReplyDeleteKimmich does not play the ball and makes a contact with Mbappé. More penalty than in first half. However, Mbappé makes one more step and then falls to the ground. Still supportable to play on, even though I doubt that Orsato saw that Mbappé was hit.
ReplyDeleteJust saw a replay. Another "small" trip that might be or might not be enough to actually make the opponent lose balance. Once again, UEFA has been extremely consistent on this issue.
ReplyDeleteLatst minutes will be very, very nervous...
ReplyDeleteNot a foul at 82:06 and decisive turnover on the call for PSG.
ReplyDeleteAR1 too quick with a flag for offside in 82'. Orsato correctly waited before whistling.
ReplyDeleteNot too quick, it was a blatant and easy call
DeleteOrsato had different opinion and waited before whistling.
DeleteStill no mistake
DeleteI don't like that the players take away the ball in order to prevent a quick execution. In Germany, we would have already had some YCs for that unsporting behaviour.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea why this isn't a universally expected YC...
Deletethe caution would be for delaying the restart of play not unsporting behaviour.
DeleteSomeone help me recall, what other "small trips" have we seen not called in these last few weeks? There was the one in the PSG - Leipzig semifinal, the one with the goalkeeper in I think one of Marciniak's games (which one?) and then I seem to recall there was another too...
ReplyDeleteMarciniak: ATL-LEI
DeleteMakkelie: CIT-LYO
Thank you!
DeleteTonight I see a referee who is giving many yellow cards to get the players calmed down, without success. The heat stays in play. Friday I saw a referee who did the opposite with managing instead of showing cards, with succes after 20 minutes.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the best approach if we compare both referee styles?
It's gambling, nothing else. In the end Makkelie had the better hand
DeleteI came to conclusion that giving cards has not always the same effects. It is just how players want to behave.
DeleteI agree with JR. Who are we to say that a different approach would have led to a better result or to a worse result in either game? Some games are easier than others, some teams will behave and some won't, and there isn't always something a referee can do about that: he can only hope to punish them appropriately if they do misbehave.
DeleteRegardless, this comment is still confusing to me, the last few minutes of this game were tense but that is normal for a CL Final. I don't see any problem in that respect. It was bizarre that the second half of the EL Final was so calm; maybe that was Makkelie's doing, or maybe it was just the way the game was destined to play out.
Missed YC in the PSG counter attack, after the no-penalty in 91'. Clear reckless foul to me.
ReplyDeleteOrsato's facial expressions are amazing!
ReplyDeleteOverall good performance by Orsato. There will be discussion about the possible penalty in 73'. I would back Orsato's decision to play on but I'm quite sure he did not perceive the contact that was made by Kimmich. Otherwise there were only minor mistakes without any influence on the outcome. Orsato and his team can be satisfied. Congratulations to Munich and the refereeing team.
ReplyDeleteA VAR check maybe should have been performed if, as it seems, Orsato saw a non-existent touch on the ball.
DeleteShould Müller's YC still be a yellow under the new lotg? The attack continued, it wasn't stopped
ReplyDeleteYeah I'm not sure I agree with that decision. Maybe for something besides SPA?
DeleteIf he deemed it a lack of respect, then the YC is correct
DeleteIt was a quite late and strong tackle, so I think it was just considered a reckless challenge.
Delete"Lack of Respect" indeed :)
DeleteFor my taste, the holding must be more intense or persistent to be punished with a YC for LoR. Not every holding offence should result in a booking, if it's not SPA.
DeleteNot a wrong caution, but a harsh one IMO.
Two very interesting penalty situations but IMO Orsato'a decisions not to call a penalties are correct or at least supportable. Some missed YCs, one corner, but all in all Orsato should be pride and happy with his performance in CL final.
ReplyDeleteAfter days of complaints about this appointment, we can easily say that Orsato had a good match. All major decisions were ok and consistent all along the match. Well done to Bayern and referee crew!
ReplyDeleteOverall good performance by Orsato with missed YC and 50/50 penalty to PSG.
ReplyDeleteBeautiful sight to see successful tournament held during pandemic.
ReplyDeleteOverall good performance by Orsato. I expected more proactive management about waisted time and balls kept by players after whistle. Few minors errors but in general good performance by italian crew.
ReplyDeleteGood Orsato, 8.2
ReplyDeleteIMO, very well Orsato tonight.
ReplyDeleteFor me, this was a good performance. All major decision are correct or at least supportable. Btw, this is a final therefore we can expect players reacting the way they did. This is normal. It’s called emotion and no refefee is immune to this. I think Orsata did a good job. Congrats to him and his team.
ReplyDeleteGood performance by Orsato. Execellent management of discipline in my opinion
ReplyDeleteTo summarize quite an interesting trend over the course of this CL restart: there were five very similar instances of "small trips" being called as no-foul on the field, and this call was supported by the VAR. I've compiled them all here:
ReplyDeleteIn the second half of this final: https://streamable.com/ysf20x
Earlier this game at 45'+1': https://streamja.com/kW3n2
PSG - Leipzig: https://streamable.com/38osku
Man City - Lyon: https://streamable.com/jfzgul
Atletico - Leipzig: https://streamable.com/bgc9bm
Maybe you can argue these plays should be called as fouls, but you can't knock UEFA for consistency!
The other officials learnt from Zwayer...
DeleteI agree regarding the consistency.
DeleteIn most cases (except 45'+1' today) it would be less controversial to punish the tripping and award the free kick / penalty. Giving the foul can hardly be criticized, while one has to search for arguments to defend the play-on calls.
Don’t agree on the controversiality argument by Philipp. In the football community there was generally hardly any controversy about the PSG-Leipzig, ManC-Lyon and Atlético-Leipzig games (apart from a bit of discussion in the countries concerned). On the contrary, in the Zwayer game there was huge controversy all over Europe when the minimal contact was punished with a penalty.
DeleteSo I disagree with the statement that whenever a minimal contact exists, punishing it is the less controversial option. Maybe here, in a referee forum, but certainly not in the football community in general.
Sorry for OT:
ReplyDeleteRC after OFR in LaLiga play-off final 2nd leg tonight.
Correct? (Original decision -> YC)
https://twitter.com/JoelMasseria/status/1297646550445969408
In case it's geoblocked:
Deletehttps://streamable.com/qed5gb
Clear RC!
Deletecorrect RC.
DeleteWhat a terrible game, when the team with 2 shots in 90+10 min wins the game in9u'
Correct, IMO.
ReplyDeleteAgreed.
Deletehttps://streamable.com/4g27e6
ReplyDeleteYour opinion? You can give for me
Should be given because the foul (careless kick) is clear but the way Mbappé falls down is the reason for VAR to not intervene.
DeleteAnyone who has link on penalty situation with Muller I think, last penalty situation of the game where both players fall after challenge?
ReplyDelete
DeleteIn the second half of this final: https://streamable.com/ysf20x
Earlier this game at 45'+1': https://streamja.com/kW3n2
There was indeed one more penalty situation, where Lewandowski (I think) fell in the penalty area - IIRC, around 80th minute.
DeleteAppreciate it but it was a later challenge around 90th minut, in PSGs penalty area. Thanks still
DeleteYou are right. It's at 90:50. Replay a bit later.
DeleteWell, done, Orsato... As always a solid performance. But even being from Munich and a Bayern fan since my childhood I must admit Orsato missed a PK after Foul Kimmich in 73rd minute. Hard to see in Realtime, but VAR should have intervened.
ReplyDeleteAlso would appreciate if someone has link for the challenge by Lewandowski on the achilles of Paredes
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone else think, that the additional time was too long. IMO there was only a standard amount of lost time (5 substiutions, 1 goal, no VAR check or longer injury break, nearly no time-wasting) - therefore I expected 3, at most 4 minutes.
ReplyDeleteDuring the ceremony after the match did anyone notice that Mr. Ceferin and Mr. Marchetti shook hands with the players? I think that looked quite strange considering UEFA’s Return to Play COVID-protocol...
ReplyDeleteMy final thought on this season CL an EL.
ReplyDeleteWe had two matches in which we had penalties that were called „soft penalties“ and majority agreed that those calls were supportable (Zwayer in Juventus-Lyon, tripping situation not handball, and Turpin in United-Copenhagen, penalty was called if I remember for pushing with a hand).
In some later matches we had some incidents that were not assessed by referees as penalties: (Marciniak in Leipzig-Atletico - tripping by goalkeeper where Marciniak did not whistle a penalty even to intensity of tripping was higher than one in Juve-Lyon; Makkelie in City-Lyon – pushing with two hands with intensity higher than one in United-Copenhagen).
The consequences were that Turpin and Zwayer were no longer appointed while Marciniak and Makkelie were appointed for EL semi-final and final matches.
Then we had Kuipers not whistling foul before PSG's third goal, again slight contact.
Tonight, again two penalty situations where contact is not doubtful but the intensity is, were not assessed as penalties.
Based on Turpin/Marciniak/Makkelie appointments and all those mentioned situations that happened after Zwayer's and Turpin's penalties I am convinced Committee instructed referees not to whistle penalties where the intensity of foul is questionable. Let's be honest, after United-Copenhagen we were not talking on this blog about supportable soft penalties but supportable non penalty decisions.
My guess is referees will be instructed before new season that whenever they are not sure about intensity of foul that they should not whistle a penalty and I expect less penalties in new season, especially for pushing by hands and slight tripping. Like it or not , but based on what we have seen in last matches I think that is a reality.
Funny, in my time instructors always said if situation is questionable and you are not sure in the intensity of foul but there was a contact, call that penalty. Seems like we will have totally opposite situation now – unless you are 110% sure that something is a penalty don’t make a call and we won’t have discussions like “there was a slight contact therefore penalty is supportable” but “there was a slight contact but due to low intensity it is ok not to call a penalty”. Since those slight contacts were always a grey area I think it would be great if Committee instructs all referees so we have consistency in all matches.
I know someone could say tripping is tripping despite the intensity but looks like Committee doesn’t think so and I agree – contact in which you fight for a ball should be allowed.
One again congratulations to Orsato and all officials.
P.S. If I am not wrong Kris Bellon, tonight's delegate, is ex-referee who is now VAR instructor in Belgium. Looks like all duties were tonight covered by referees :)
Well, after the final we can see some default of the VAR system. I think that the 45' incident was a penalty. At least I expected the referee going to the VAR for better examination. I was surprised that the VAR officers did not consult him. Having see other similar situations I conclude that uefa should change its praktice and nominate referees and VAR officers from the same country. Because I feel that the VAR officers are interest more to support and protect the referee and not the game.
ReplyDeleteI mean off course NOT nominate referees and VAR officers from the same country
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think about Supercup appoitment. I expect to see Hategan after all. Somebody else ?
ReplyDeleteWe will make a prediction on next days. Romanian is surely an option, Turpin could "pay" Frappart appointment made one year ago, meaning that it will be difficult to see a French again.
DeleteNormally, Turpin should be the favourite, but indeed Frappart's appointment could be a problem.
DeleteTaylor would be the first alternative, I think. Would be deserved after a good season - and there could often be English teams in the Supercup in the next years.
Hategan is also possible, but I think, he had his reward with the 4th official appointment already.
Maybe an outside chance for Soares Dias?
I can see Hategan and then Taylor. Once again Frappart appointment last year was not fair for Turpin but well...
DeleteAny Saudi appointments for next few days?
ReplyDeleteRegarding the situation in 73', for sure more penalty than the incident at the end of first half. In this case, I think Irrati made the assessment by himself (not enough for an intervention) despite of the fact that Orsato had missed the touch on the player live (indeed very likely he thought that ball had been played). One can agree with Irrati, if we think that in a final, for an OFR, sometihng more is expected.
ReplyDelete@KVG I think you are totally wrong with this idea, the concept of VAR is exactly to have a feeling with referee on the pitch, VAR must work and assess the incidents, he is not there to "protect referee" because he is from the same country.
@Chefren I fully agree with you for the concept and for what is VAR there but I feel that is better if referee and VAR officers are not "relative".
DeleteDoes anyone have a video about the penalty appeal by Bayern in the 91st minute?
ReplyDeleteHere’s the 91’ minute situation:
Deletehttps://streamable.com/jirs9b
Thanks Dutch, not a PK for me, he gets a bit of the ball when shielding the ball
DeleteThanks Dutch Ref! IMO that's a penalty, Kehrer clearly trips Lewandowski and only plays the ball afterwards.
DeleteI don’t see the trip, just two players fairly challenging for the ball. Perfectly OK decision for me.
DeleteYeah, I just mean, I would have preferred a penalty here as well as in the Mbappe/Kimmich situation. But Orsato chose that approach in penalty situations and I'm definetely okay with that.
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