Saturday 26 November 2022

Discussion page for FRADEN (Marciniak) and ARGMEX (Orsato)

A second World Cup experience for the Polish crew headed by Szymon Marciniak. They start in 2022 on a sonorous all-Euro tie: France against Denmark. In addition, the late game will be handled by Daniele Orsato. One could expect the Italian to have his hands full in Argentina vs. Mexico. Discussions here.

104 comments:

  1. Appointments:

    CMR - SRB: Mohamed
    KOR - GHA: Taylor
    BRA - SUI: Barton
    POR - URU: Faghani

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    1. Second appointment for Faghani in 4 days, while Al-Jassim will be only FO. Is any replacement?

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    2. Juan Soto AVAR in Cameroon-Serbia

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  2. IMO good decision Marciniak by potentiel red card

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    1. Very close indeed. Correct decision reached as at least one defender would have had a possible chance to intervene in distance remaining.

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    2. Perfect decision and very well sold to the players. Confident and alert body language by the polish referee.

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  3. 42' YC for stamp by French player on Denmark's player's ankle. Not enough force for RC, but not too far from it, either.

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    1. To me it's red. While the contact is only with the "toe" of the studs, it's forceful a direct hit at high speed, to the opponent's Achilles just above the ankle.

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    2. This is never a RC. Not even orange for me. Intensity far too low.

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  4. Not an easy game for Marciniak. 2 potential RC situation, in both only a YC given. He is lucky that it was on the opposite sides, so its "1-1", but IMO supportable decisions in both cases. In addition, some very fast counter attacks and long balls, but M. and ARs fitness seems good, hopefully they can maintain it until the end of the game

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    1. Both YCs more than supportable. We shouldn't go looking for RC material - such material should be quite obvious (and neither situation was).

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  5. Very good performance by Marciniak in the 1H, IMO, quite in accordance with his recent form. I would back him in both "big decisions:
    1) YC for SPA was correct for me, there was at least one defender that could have intervened (although it's a very interesting situation).
    2) YC for reckless stamp in 43' is also correct, although it was pretty close to SFP. Force used and the point of contact point to YC for me, but I admit it's pretty "orange".

    There was probably a foul for DEN missed by Marciniak, just before a reckless tackle by the DEN player (correctly sanctioned with a YC), but that's the only potential mistake worth mentioning for my taste.

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    1. The last paragraph refers to minute 23, sorry.

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  6. About the YC for Christensen after foul ag. Mbappe /possible RC:
    If you freeze the picture in the moment of the foul, its true: Looks like 2 denish players still could defend Mbappe's attack. So from a formal view the YC is correct.
    Only if we consider, how fast Mbappe is, this is a RC. So what would we say if the ref, knowing that, opted for a red card!?? Just to think about. :-)

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    1. You definitely raised a very good question, I do admit I'm intrigued with that as a topic for deeper consideration. But I still think YC was the optimal solution today.

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    2. Distance is still also relatively high.

      We only have to consider that there is a possible intervention by either defender - which existed.

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  7. Stellar onside by Listkiewicz on the 2-1 goal.

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  8. Best performance of the tournament! Well done to Team Marciniak! :-)

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  9. Very good performance by the whole crew, well done! I especially liked the verbal warning after dissent against AR2, around minute 77.

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  10. Very good performance by Marciniak. 2H very football focused with a bice onside in 2-1 goal, all three cautions in 1H (two of them whose card colour might be debatable) well managed with strong body language. Full control.

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    1. Fully agree with you, I would even say it was an excellent performance, it was a pleasure to watch it. Absolutely no issues for Marciniak in terms of match control, body language, rapport with players: an excellent display. I agree with all of his decisions regarding key situations, as well as his disciplinary line.

      Just to add: two very nice onside decisions by AR2, resulting in both goals for France (especially the second one).

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  11. Possible YC in 5'
    Orsato decided that it's too early.

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    1. I don't want to be judgemental, but so many times replays show a hand/arm to the face as not being very forceful yet players nonetheless have their heads recoil as if struck by a mighty blow (oftentimes after a second delay) and then either flail about on the ground and/or stay down for a very lengthy time, probably in hopes of getting the offender a YC now or for a subsequent offence.

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    2. That's what players will do,put refs in tough position with their acting.

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    3. Exactly! The acting has gotten so good that sometimes it's hard to tell that it's acting!

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    4. A few hours ago. Sampaio was crucified for not showing a Caution in a similar situation. But in this case, Orsato gets excused? Good to see that comments aren't biased or based on fanaticism.

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    5. It's not the same,elbow from Cash was way more forceful and in later stage of gane,this was practically 1st rough foul of the match.

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    6. Honest question, can you please refer me to the page in the LOTG where it covers the showing of cards early in the game versus later in the game? Thank you.

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    7. I wrote what I wrote,does not mean I'm right away Orsato's fan.

      And who says that you are not Sampaio's fan with the wqy you defend him?

      There is no rule, but if you follow refs and their way,you would see that they tend to not give bookings in early stages of the match cause if they did,then we would have 20 bookings a match.

      Thank you

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    8. I'm neither defending nor accusing. I'm simply saying that I like that comments are biased or influenced. If you feel identified, well that's on you not me.
      Referees don't "give" cards. Players "earn" them with "their" actions. Referees simply oblige them by enforcing the LOTG. After all, they are called Laws, if they weren't then they'd just be "Suggestions".

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    9. *not biased or influenced. (typo)

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    10. Ok,thank you then ,sorry for my overreaction.

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    11. No worries friend, we're all on the same "team" here. Team Referee!

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  12. Surely that's a YC for a reckless elbow

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  13. Replies
    1. Good question. I guess the admins are busy.

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  14. The first minutes seem to confirm what was expected; this will be a tough game!

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  15. Mexico is playing extemely physical defense so will be a very challenging match for Orsato, and the YC count may be higher than we've seen thus far in the tournament.

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    1. Also, the crowd atmosphere is fantastic, adding to the intensity of the match.

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  16. Where GAME 24 page? The most importante game today!!!

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  18. 17' a YC for simulation to Mexican player grabbing his head when obviously not hit there might help stop all the acting, but such cards are rarely given.

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    1. If more were given, IMO it would be great for football in general. But it takes referees with b@!!$ to do it.

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  19. Classic YC to Araujo in 22' now given.

    Nothing higher,so yc is ok.

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  20. Orsatto so far very lenient on disciplinary aspect. When Argentina have a disadvantage to be eliminate, the risk for the game not end well is probably a fact. He should have more rigorous to keep match control.

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    1. In the other side Mexico too open the tool box of fouls..Extremely difficult Orsatto's situation

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    2. For this reason, is why I think Faghani was superb in BRA-SRB. He realized very early that SRB was out to stop BRA from playing in any manner possible. And he clamped down on it. Some complained that BRA got too many calls. Well, SRB committed too many fouls trying to disrupt BRA's elegant, creative possession-based football.

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  21. Now missed YC to #10 MEX,2 very rough fouls so I was suprised that he only sad to him no mas.

    Should have been punished with yc.

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  22. This foot to the head also a yellow for me. The rather strict approach at the first games this WC is sadly not continued…

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  23. Looks like Orsato is showing us that Collina and company told refs to be more lenient.

    Total mistake imo.

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    1. I'm already traumatized by the horrors we see in CONCACAF. Don't do the same to the biggest most watched event in the world.

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    2. I don't think there were new instructions, Orsato simply just missed all the cautions.

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    3. But the last few matches have been so different than the first ones. Only Sampaio seemed to carry on in the same manner.

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  24. Now correct YC to Montiel.

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  25. Curious incident at 30'. Thoughts?

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  26. Match under Orsato’s control. Great referee with personality...

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  27. Orsato missed a few YC's imo. Maybe it's a directive from Collina but this game could spill over if he's not careful. The couple of YC's awarded have been spot on though

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  28. I agree that the match is under full control, Orsato with his usual very convincing body language and natural authority ensures that.

    However, from a technical standpoint, two missed YCs: 5' (elbow to the face) and 35' (reckless kick to the head), both to Mexico. I can understand the first miss from a management perspective, however the second one should have been given IMO.

    Lenient line both in foul detection and disciplinary aspect, let's see if there will be consequences in the 2H (I don't really expect any, Orsato's got a grip on proceedings in terms of control so far).

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  29. For all the expectations this match generated in the build-up. It's been a "DUD" of a match. Sloppy, with no flow or rhythm. Just downright ugly. Yesterday's USA-ENG which was also a snoozefest, at times was more enjoyable.

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  30. Orsato is simply the right referee for this match, well accepted by the players and fully in charge. I have not seen everything in the first half, but in such a match, it seems clever to me to avoid to give too many cards too early as it could easily lead to ~ 10 YCs overall. Likely the end will become more challenging if Argentina does not score…

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    1. Why would that be a problem?

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    2. I do not think that spectators want to see 10 YCs in a normal match. Most important thing is match control. Indeed, mandatory YCs have to be shown, but if possible, you can use your cards very effectively in order to keep in charge of the match.

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    3. Referees don't "give" cards. Players "earn" them with "their" actions. Referees simply oblige them by enforcing the LOTG. After all, they are called Laws, if they weren't then they'd just be "Suggestions".

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    4. In addition to Ref_1707’s reply:

      IMO disciplinary sanctions are available for the referee to help him keep the match under control. They’re tools, not tasks. Issuing more disciplinary sanctions not necessarily improves match control. And did Orsato have the match under control? As far as I’m concerned to the fullest extent possible.

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  31. OT:
    The biggest disservice to English language audiences in the United States is to have Dr. Joe Machnik as the "referee expert" on its broadcasts.

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  32. Like Sampaio, Orsato's strong presence early in the game has turned this originally very hot clash into a smooth landing.

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  33. At least a semi-final for Orsato

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  34. Not a single comment about 28'? It never ceases to amaze me how, by and large, Europeans don't seem to pick up on these things. Clear VC. A deliberate stomp to the opponent on the ground.

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    1. VC for me as well. I commented about it above and labeled it 30', wrong timestamp sorry. Surprised about the lack of discussion here, it is very naïve to think that was accidental.

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    2. I think, most people here just saw it as an accident and not worth discussing.
      Rewatching it after your comment, the stomp does indeed seem unneccessary. On the other hand, I am not really convinced about his intentio, because I don't see any motive: Why would he want to do that in this situation?
      And you should be quite sure about it being deliberate, when you issue a RC for VC.
      However, a YC for a reckless foul looks appropriate here.

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    3. Possible motive: wasn't the player making the stomp the same player who had been recklessly fouled a minute or two earlier? Will have to go back and watch the incidents.

      I think it is debatable, not place for a VAR to step in. But I have big suspicion

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    4. I tend to agree with Philipp's view here. Yes, I have noticed it immediately upon happening and have also thought about VC, but it somehow felt like an accident. Maybe I'm being embarrassingly naive/wrong here, but a RC somehow just doesn't fit here, at least for me.

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    5. I realize I'm painting with a broad brush, but I think the European tendency to view these sort of things as accidents is what always surprises me. Perhaps you don't see this enough. But it happens all the time in our hemisphere--from amateur up to professional/international levels. Trying to discern a motive is looking for an excuse not to punish the obvious misconduct. But, with that said, yes this was the player who was tackled high at 22'. Also, players do this sort of thing precisely because they think they will get away with it--look at this situation, Orsato was barely able to see it given his positioning.

      In the end, though, you need to look at the play in total. Please watch it. Tell me how you think that's an accident. What player, in that situation, looking to cross the ball with his left foot goes out of his way to plant his right foot in an awkward and unnatural spot like that? It makes no sense. It's a deliberate action.

      I've made my point here. And I trust FIFA is fine without an intervention. But that's a clear case of violent conduct. It was deliberate and premediated. If we're not punishing it at this tournament because the bar is so high, then so be it. But elite referees of all geographies would do well to recognize that for what it is.

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  35. Despite some technical mistakes, Orsato was excellent tonight. He chose the perfect approach for this match and had NO ISSUES AT ALL in match control. Players fully accepted him. German commentator also praises Orsato‘s performance. IMO he is quite a safe guess for a SF.

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  36. What do you think?
    That Orsato is going straight for a semifinal after this match or that he is going to get a round of 16/quarter game??

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    1. It depends on the performance of other referees. He could even be a candidate for the final, though that will certainly raise discomfort with the non-Italian contingent of the committee. And still, it is possible that other referees also perform well enough to challenge for the semifinal games. But no question that so far he is the best ref at the tournament.

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  37. The first WC big match dominated by the italian ref. Orsato the best referee at Qatar2022 so far. Great personality and body language, one can discuss about some possible YC not given today, but I think it is part of a chameleonic disciplinary management, depending on the type of match, confirming an excellent interpretation. Based on Orsato's performance so far, he deserves at least a semi-final

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  38. Replies
    1. They both are strong candidates, there are also more candidates, I can imagine for example Cesar Ramos and other names, it will depend on next matches and performances.

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  39. After all 4 matches this is definitely best day for referees on the tournament

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  40. Yellow cards, yellow cards. This is all we want? Forget these little details (they are learning points and rarely cause an excellent referee to lose control). Look at the big picture.

    Referees, even at this level, cannot see everything. A body in the way, a leg in the way, a head in the way is all that's needed to miss possible contact. This should never be the goal anyway.

    Manage the players and manage the game with outstanding communication, consistent decision-making for what can be seen, getting the big decisions right, and outstanding teamwork. Orsato did that. This was a masterful performance.

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    1. It happened during last WC that the 'law-enforcers' fought the 'event managers' -- rather than disagreeing agreeably, it turned into all-out warfare, chased away the two excellent commenters and spoilt Law5 for everyone -- and I don't want the same to happen again. There is more to refereeing than hoisting pieces those pieces of plastic into the air and it should go without saying that having COMMON SENSE is a key skill of any referee of note, but on the other hand, the whole point of the blog is to delve a bit deeper than "the big picture is awesome, the teams are happy, there is no controversy", because ANYONE can tell you that. And there are gradients as well: you can't compare masterful Orsato (and I agree he was masterful tonight!) to the risable Escobar/Elfath, and then to the better but still struggling Ghorbal/Beath, etc. People have different views on how it should be done, and that's great(!), but I encourage people to take the very civilised attitude which characterises this blog in the normal weeks, overcoming the great emotion and passion which the WC brings to do so.

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    2. In that case, I will revert back then to what we could see (and the referee, possibly not). This has little, if anything, to do with whatever the referees are receiving under instruction.

      Arm to face early in game - YC not needed
      Foot to face - YC would be expected (one was given for a similar situation later in game)
      Stomp - definitely not deliberate as one person would suggest - YC would be expected

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  41. Very good performance by Orsato IMO, even excellent if we consider his absolute control over a tense and potentially hot match. His natural authority is very difficult to match and, along with excellent player management, enabled him to smoothly lead this game to a satisfying end. I've said it before and I'll say it now: I'll definitely miss him when he retires.

    That being said, he definitely missed a YC in 5' and 35', and I would have liked at least the latter to be given. However, we saw an optimal disciplinary line in the 2H IMO, with good YCs in 50', 66' and 89' (all of them to Mexico IIRC). Now, one issue I want to underline is consistency between no card-decision in 35' and a YC in 89': where is consistency in those two cases? Let's say it was a singular aspect I didn't like in his performance tonight and a YC in 35' would have pleased me greatly.

    All in all, another performance that I enjoyed watching today and I certainly hope for something big to be given to Orsato at this WC.

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    1. Orsato may well have been unsighted in first.

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    2. You're probably right. It still stays as a mistake to be noted, but of course: mistakes happen to everyone and will happen to everyone because we're not robots. Orsato was excellent tonight, I can fully agree on that.

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  42. In regards to Mikael's comment above at 22:58
    I can agree to abide by what you're suggesting. But like you said, it's got to go both ways.
    In the same manner, can we have people "cool it" with their already rewarding a referee the Final?
    Can we focus on simply assigning the upcoming matchday and taking it one game at a time?
    Thanks.

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  43. I think it is very difficult to assess this performance. I tend to say the same as most contributors. Orsato showed great personality and great management skills. However, I think he missed two pretty blatant red card tackles in the first half, by Araujo and by Montiel. Can't really see why these are not SFP offences. So can we just ignore that? Again, in the end he controlled the match and that's what counts, but I wouldn't want these type of fouls to go without bigger punishment.

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  44. Analysis of ARGMEX

    Key Match Incidents:

    22’ - Possible red card for serious foul play. 2MEX performs a sliding tackle when following the ball. He barely touches the ball with his leading, straightened leg that was positioned on the ground and then hits 8ARG with a heel of off-the-ground but bent second leg. The right, hit leg of 8ARG was not on the ground what also made an impact much less significant. Offence committed with bent leg, no full studs contact (just a heel), not a standing leg of ARG has been hit -> an "only” yellow card shown by Daniele Orsato was an optimal choice.

    28’ - Possible red card for violent conduct. 8ARG deceives 26MEX by imitating a cross and halting the process causing his opponent to make a sliding tackle. When he goes past him, the Argentine makes an unnatural step to his right, placing his foot on an opponent’s leg. Orsato correctly awards a free kick - although he should’ve allowed another Argentine to take a shot on goal - but refuses to issue any disciplinary sanction. Such incidents are extremely difficult to assess and everybody has their own view on them. Mine is that the Argentine maybe tried to win a FK by putting his leg in front of an opponent but rather didn’t deliberately step on him, therefore a YC should’ve been given for reckless challenge.

    78’ - Possible second yellow card. Already cautioned 16MEX kicks 12ARG. Careless action. Maybe the last warning would be optimal but no more than that.

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    1. Overview:

      Regarding control it was the best performance of the tournament so far. No-nonsense approach by Daniele Orsato who brilliantly ‘felt’ the game and had a great rapport with players. Mutual respect between the referee and players (but also benches - see management of ARG coach at 12’ ended up with thumbs up gestures). He was even able to smile when explaining an offside call in 18’, which is very rare in his case. The Italian was at the top of almost every single scene during this game.

      As for disciplinary control, he chose a lenient line in the first half by not cautioning players after any of the following offences: kicking by 18MEX (2’), illegal use of arm by 10MEX (5’), tripping by 4ARG (9’), SPA-like holding by 18ARG (20’). None of these were mandatory YC but in general the referee was lucky that the first challenge he was forced to caution a player for was a very reckless tackle by 2MEX (22’). After that, there were another two incidents that should’ve been sanctioned: step on leg by 8ARG (28’) and kick in face by 22MEX (35’) - but Orsato, mistakenly, didn’t do that. On the other hand, none of the yellow cards issued by the referee could be questioned. I just didn’t like the passive mode he turned on in the dying stages of the game. But he was absolutely sure there won’t be any conflict as he controlled the game perfectly and earned enormous respect from players.

      Well, Orsato missed two yellow cards but it’s a minor thing taking into account the level of control he presented in this game. How he managed players at 5’, 11’, 18’, 33’ was masterclass. And how players reacted to decisions made by him was the best sign of an exceptional performance. No theatre, no acting, just a tough man REFEREEING a game.

      Marks:
      Daniele Orsato - 8
      Ciro Carbone - 7
      Alessandro Giallatini - 7
      Massimiliano Irrati - IV

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  45. Analysis

    Very assured performance by Szymon Marciniak in a really dynamic and football-focused match (to highlight the latter point: the next foul after one at 58’ was… +96’ at the end of the 2H!). In a different game, there were disciplinary incidents which might have been handled differently, such as this foul at 58’ which was a relatively reckless off-the-ball block, but absolutely no issue for this (format of) match.

    The characterising factor for this performance is a number of potential RCs which Marciniak resisted, always optimally for FIFA. Let’s take a look.

    DOGSO? (20mins)
    https://streamable.com/h4ofpr

    SFP? (23mins)
    https://streamable.com/4ddyr9

    SYC? (35mins)
    https://streamable.com/5wgr00

    SYC? (41mins)
    https://streamable.com/ut4zn8

    SFP? (43mins)
    https://streamable.com/m20a2a

    VC? (65mins)
    https://streamable.com/6p8oze

    Quick analysis: ironically 20’ would have been a RC at Italia ’90 but not here(!!), correct SPA, question “is this DOGSO for Mbappé” vs. “is this a DOGSO position” lead to different answers; 23’ is studs-above-ankle contact but force should be low enough; 35’ is 100% careless but 41’ is more interesting, surely a deliberate stamp…; 43’ should be an example of SFP but not a CLEAR one and I’m sure FIFA were happy and finally 65’ is by far less clear than ARGMEX ‘equivalent’, though worthy of observation I think.

    Overall: job very well done by Polish crew (good and very good onsides by Listkiewicz jr. for the French goals). A big tournament could be on the cards for them.

    7 - 7 - 7 - (III)

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  46. What did is say 10 days ago? Marciniak on the direct path to final. He is THE top referee of the world right now.

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