Friday, 22 June 2018

2018 FIFA World Cup Match 26: Serbia - Switzerland (discussion #2)

We can continue here the discussion. 
Match #26
Kaliningrad, 22 June 2018 20:00 CET
Serbia - Switzerland
Referee: Felix Brych (GER)
Assistant Referee 1: Mark Borsch (GER)
Assistant Referee 2: Stefan Lupp (GER)
Fourth Official: Nawaf Shukralla (BHR)
Fifth Official: Yaser Tulefat (BHR)
VAR: Felix Zwayer (GER)
AVAR1: Bastian Dankert (GER)
AVAR 2: Carlos Astroza (CHI)
AVAR 3: Clément Turpin (FRA)

Video of the most controversial incident:

125 comments:

  1. Thank to River lena for having linked the video.
    Let's continue the discussion here.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you want to find a video of a major incident, the reddit soccer page gets them very quickly. You can find them in the new tab, or the post-match thread on there.

      Delete
    2. As long as you don't read the comments on Reddit, everything should be fine.

      Don't go to the comments. They are a scary place.

      Delete
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  2. Kolarov said that referee and Swiss players talked on German during whole match and that he begged them to speak in English, because this is international match. He also said (and i agree) that it is not normal to give to a German to referee Switzerland match

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    Replies
    1. If that's true and Kolarov doesn't have a reason to lie, that's at least disrespectful act

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    2. I am quite sure, the same thing happened with Cunha and Spain. Surely a point for discussion, whether referees should avoid that and only use English. On the other hand it seems a bit strange to not use the common native language in a 1-1 talk.

      German referees for Switzerland and (more remembered) Swiss referees for Germany are a quite common thing.

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    3. Moreover, Kolarov said that appoint German to referee to Swiss is the same as to appoint Montenegrin to oversee Serbian match. This should never happened. But Serbia is so small and so unimportant in football world that this would be forgotten very fast.

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    4. That's not comparable. Germany and Switzerland never were united or have any closer relationship than the language.
      Germany-Austria would be a different story, but still not the same as Serbia & Montenegro (or any of the other former Jugoslavia countries).

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    5. Well, anyway i think that kind of appoitments should be avoided. I would never want to see in official match a Swedish referee in Denmarks match or Lithuanian referee on Estonian match and so on

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    6. Argument they were not territorially united is no relative argument IMO

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    7. Brych lives 180 kilometers from Swiss.

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    8. Could easily have been Brych in Brazil v Costa Rica and Kuipers in Serbia v Switzerland... Why doesn't Committee pay attention to this smaller details?

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    9. Sorry but all these arguments would convince much more if you had argued that way BEFORE the match. And I cannot accept you just use them to insinuate that Brych was not neutral in that game. THIS is absolutely unacceptable and touches the question of honour of a brave sportsmen. So stop escalating this question. It is about one wrong or right decision. And that's it!!!

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    10. I am just saying that, if i had some power, which i will never have, i would never appoint German referee for Swiss match, Dutch for Belgian, Cypriot for Greek, Danish for Sweden and so on. Because in such cases even if the ref tries to be neutral there will be open space for complaints from other side

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    11. Honestly this is just ridiculous to me, the players need to stop being cry babies... So what if the ref speaks the same language as one team? Nearly everybody can speak English anyways, at least as it relates to a soccer game. So if you have something to say to Brych, just use English! Honestly, who cares if the ref shares a language with one of the countries? If they let such minute criteria prevent referees from working certain matches, you can always find a reason why one ref might be "biased" under similarly-strong criteria towards one team or another. Such minute things as this should not affect the game at all, so why change the referee because of them? I'm sure Brych still called a fair game regardless.

      In soccer I feel like people are way too sensitive about these things... in (ice) hockey, international referees officiate their own country at the Olympics all the time! And no one has a problem with it. To see people complain about the languages the refs speak just seems so ridiculous to me.

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    12. Also on some subconscious level it is hard to completely neutral match even if you try to do so... And i am not making any excuses for anyone tonight, i am someone who thinks that Brych didnt make mistake by not giving penalty tonight. I am just saying that this arguments can be easily avoided.

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    13. Kolarov's language conspiracy theory sounds like Amrabat's Geiger "jersey-gate". In other words, empty non provable accusations.

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    14. Soccer Guy. But that is exactly the point. Problem is that Brych Talked in German with Swiss players in front of Serbian players and they asked them to speak English so they could understand what they are talking about, but they didnt





























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    15. I remember in 2014 some Croatian players complained that Nishimura was speaking Japanese on the pitch... I didn't believe it that time because Brazilians don't understand Japanese I would assume!

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    16. Agree with Soccer Guy, same thing in international rugby league matches. They don't care what country the referee is from. I can't believe that people are questioning the personal integrity of a referee on this blog. Chefren should be doing more to combat this as we should be supporting referees. Even when they make wrong decisions we should try to look at it from their point of view.

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    17. I didnt question Brychs integrity in single sentence i wrote. I was just saying that these controversies can be easily avoided so we dont have statements like this one from Kolarov and also not to give one more argument for conspiracy theorists from losing and dissatisfied sides, especially in cases if referee makes (honest) mistake.

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    18. I would argue that in an attempt to avoid these controversies, they are actually creating more of a conflict of interest. Because now, for whichever team advances, a referee can weigh in his head which team he is more likely to be assigned to. Assignments should not be done with nationality of the referee in mind except avoiding refereeing his own country and avoiding refereeing a game where the winner could face his country in the next knockout stage. Enough with the idea that being from the same continent or speaking the same language as one of the teams is an issue. We should not pander to conspiracy theorists; this gives their complaints more credit than they deserve.

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    19. Do you have a link to this interview?

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    20. i have no problem with an official in an international match to speak as many languages as needed that he speak with the players. helps communication.

      guy bitching about that is too acute between the ears.

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  3. It's a clear penalty to me. They held him way before he used his arms. You punish what happens first. Brych didn't see them holding him because the ball wasn't there yet and he didn't look at that direction. But VAR can see that. They should have at least given the advice for an OFR.

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  4. Sorry but after watching this video I have to day it is NOT a 100 % clear PK for me, but the point is that VAR HAD TO TELL BRYCH to rewatch this.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. PS
      Or did Brych refuse to have a look at the screen? If that is the case that would be a match defining break through of his seldom appearing extreme self-consciousness turning into sort of arrogance.

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    2. @Andrasch: I agree, Brych arrogance ruled here, his face expression was clear. He didn't want VAR here.

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    3. If it is not even a clear PK for you, how can you assume, that it is a clear and obvious error, where VAR must intervene?
      Remember, that they should only recommend a review in that case.

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    4. BTW, the poll maybe should have the option: "Crucial mistake, but the VAR did not have to intervene"

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    5. You have to differ between the view Brych had on the situation, full frontage. From that side it was a foul from both sides. But from other perspectives it was likely a PK. And when the VAR see them, they should have told him in that match-defining situation to review it. Even if - as here - there still are arguments to refuse the PK.

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  5. Good evening everyone, for me it's a clear penalty. Defenders do not play the ball at any time. The attacker desperately tries to jump to play the ball with the help of his arms but they holding him. The VAR should have intervened.

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    Replies
    1. The defenders didn't intend to play the ball, they didn't even watch the ball - they watched only Mitrovic, holding him and trying not to allow him to reach the ball. VAR had to invite Brych to review.

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  6. IMO you can decide anything you want: PK, play on or (like Brych did) offensive foul

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    Replies
    1. That is why the best decision was to use VAR and do an off-field review. Brych was too arrogant to ask for video assistance.

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    2. Niko, we DO NOT KNOW if they asked him to review it or not. Stay fair!

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  7. Like Victor said, Mitrovic used his arms after both defenders pulled him down to ground. That was obvious penalty for me, and a game changing decision. I am an active referee and an active reader of this blog, I always try to be objective. I appreciated Mr. Brih, but his performance tonight wasn`t good at all. The VAR sistem really failed to recognize and punish pulling in the penalty area at this WC. The players saw the games before, and they think that this kind of behaviour is not punishable, Mr. Brih, sadly, proved them to be right tonight.

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  8. OT
    I wonder if the players will be sanctioned by FIFA for showing political messages during goal celebration?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. They should be. Those signs heated the athmosphere by turning a sports-victory into a nationalistic political statement. Unacceptable.

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  9. https://twitter.com/5liveSport/status/1010242663570923521

    BBC Sports wins.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Soham, I followed you on twitter.
    Does Chefren has account?
    Thanks in advance

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You can contact Chefren in the blog's official Twitter account or Facebook account... He is active in both the places :)

      Delete
    2. @DrMr Can you please send me a message on Twitter? I can't identify you :P

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  11. https://sport.blic.rs/svetsko-prvenstvo-u-fudbalu-rusija-2018/ne-nedostaje-mi-srbija-razmisljam-o-granitnom-kosovu-dzaka-i-posle-meca-nastavio-sa/wfv4wdv

    What an ugly political message from Xhaka.

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    Replies
    1. What does the symbol mean? I can't understand what is written!

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    2. Xhaka and Saciri are both Albanians from Kosovo. Born there. The symbol is Albanian eagle which is provocation to Serbs because it is a symbol of so called Great Albania (Albanians pretend to take some Serbian cities, west of Macedonia and east of Montenegro and make Great Albania). He celebrates goal for Swiss with Albanian eagle - that is big humiliation for Switzerland as well.

      Sorry for politics, i just tried to answer the question from Soham.

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    3. Albanian eagle. There is no need for politics in sports

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    4. It is The Black Eagle, sign of Great Albania, which should take part of Srbian, Macedonia, Greece and Montenegro. Wherever Albanians live it should be Albanian land. Kosovo war was about that, not "liberation".
      Something like showing swastika to all people died in WW2.

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    5. It symbols Albanian national amblem

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    6. Thanks to all for explaining... So surely both players are now going to be sanctioned by FIFA, isn't it??

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    7. Not sure. Remember Anelka(not Albanian connection) was using the same celebration, so it could be interpreted as something else.

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    8. @Soham
      They won't be, you can bet on that.

      Delete
  12. Looks like similar situation with Marciniak's not giving penalty to Argentina.
    And VAR not correcting him.

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    Replies
    1. That situation had a much varied opinion all around... But for this one the general consensus around seems to be that it is a definite missed penalty in Kaliningrad!

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    2. i wouldnt say consensus. 6 point something maybe 7 out of 10 watching various angles without any pressure.

      and 1 or 2 of those are just leaning over the fence.

      dam tough one. can see both sides. the more i watch it the more im leaning on pk.

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  13. Matic said that Brych told him at half time that if he makes one more foul - he will be out! Scandal! Brych should be out from this WC.

    Here is the video from 2013 when Brych in less than 5 minutes in such derby match between Serbia and Croatia gave second YC for Matic. He thought 2-3 seconds what to do, and decided to give red card. Does experience ref do that in this kind of a match for home side?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrkGUtJ8iH8

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Do you believe every word from the media and players? You probably also believe that Geiger asked for Ronaldo’s shirt.

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    2. And in the video both decisions are 100% correct. Matic hit the player recklessly with the studs of course it’s a yellow.

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    3. Now you're being too harsh.
      Out of WC???Come on now.


      Also,Matic made a foul(I cant remember minute,maybe around 75 min.-80 min.)on Shaqiri that is maybe worthy of a yc,but he did not give him anything.

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    4. Agree with Victor and M, Teo is overreacting. His head needs to cool down

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    5. >If this foul from Matic was for second YC in this type of clash (you should have that in mind), then on this WC we should already have 10 RCs (only Irmatov should give 3 by himself), and we still have only one, and not for VC, 2 reckless challenges or whatsoever, but for handling preventing goal.
      I don't have to believe to media - Matic said what Brych told him.

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    6. I can understand that,I understand that Balkan mentality,but Brych isn't the only reason Serbia lost.

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    7. Maybe I should cool my head, but if VAR worked, the table would be:
      Brasil 6
      Serbia 6
      Swiss 0
      Costa Rica 0.

      Swiss scored from foul against Brasil, and escaped penalty on 1-1 tonight. They got 4 points, Serbia lose 3, Brasil lose 2. Thanks to VAR doing nothing. And they are now through.

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    8. Of course he isn't, Serbian tactics fell apart in second half. But this is refereeing blog and we are talking about refereeing

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    9. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    10. You can’t assume Serbia would have scored the penalty etc. You can only say the penalty would have been given. And even if they scored there was time left.

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    11. @Teo
      Agree with that part. My comment about cooling your head is refered to article from news you mentioned.

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    12. I still think and apparently FIFA also, according to appointments that Swiss goal against Brasil was not clear error

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    13. Valeri hasn't been appointed as main VAR again after Brazil v Switzerland...

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    14. good point teo about points

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  14. Okay, can we conclude that Brych was the first referee who did not comply with the FIFA instructions?

    I'm not talking about what the effect had on the player's discipline!
    Just wonder if this is the first referee to judge on his 'own' criterion.

    Thanks.

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    Replies
    1. I just wish every referee was like this, I wish FIFA didn't have these stupid criteria that change the rules for this tournament. Getting rid of the 2-yellow-card-accumulation rule would be a good start. Or at least increasing it to at least 3 yellow cards before a suspension.

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    2. And I agree with you, that's the criteria we all want but my question was different :)

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  15. I couldn't watch the entire game but here is my opinion on the penalty incident.

    NOT a clear penalty, NOT a clear and obvious error to not award the PK. Both defenders initiate contact with Mitrovic before Mitrovic does anything wrong, but in my opinion there's not force in any of their arms. They are making contact with him but I don't think they ever restrained him in any way before Mitrovic struck the defenders' heads. I think their arms are there to keep track of where the attacker is and I don't think they ever actually hold him back or pull him down until AFTER the Mitrovic strike. At least, that is the argument that can easily be used to defend the call. In reality for me, this call could go either way, but certainly not a clear error for which the VAR should intervene. I also think Mitrovic deserved a yellow for the reckless strike(s) to the face of the opponent(s) either way.

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    Replies
    1. Well, for me the player just try to jump and play the ball but he can't because of the holding. Then, he unintentionally strike the defender with his knee when he jumped...

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    2. I disagree as well. If defenders hadn't held him, he would be in a possible goal scoring opportunity.

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    3. the only thing i dont like is a defender using both arms corraling the player, 1 arm up and hooked while other is working is good.

      both arms, high alert holding, obstructing, or impeding the progress of an opponent.

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    4. Attacking player used his arms only when two Swiss players where holding him and not enabling him to jump. If we have in our mind that the same player already scored a goal in this game with his head, and that he is known for a great air positioning and ability to play with his head, the decision not to sanction this duel is having a greater impact taking everything into account. I am not saying Mitrovic would score a goal, but he would definitely be in a good goal scoring opportunity. This was clear penalty in my opinion.

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  16. Now in last group round,we have deciding match between Brazil and Serbia.
    Top ref needs to be appointed there,maybe Cakir is not a bad solution?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I would like Irmatov or Faghani in that match

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    2. I dont know about Irmatov,we saw how he handled similar type of match yesterday so different name for sure.

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    3. I really liked how he handled it :D That is why want him again

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    4. Irmatov? Come on! After Argentina-Croatia to get Brasil-Serbia... nd he was week in first South Amecican-European (Balkan) clash. Important match, but little chance for Serbia.

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    5. Well, that is exactly my point:D It will be, in terms of mentality of teams similar match, and doing such a good job (IMO, which can be wrong and with respect of majority here who thinks otherwise) last night recommends him to get that match

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    6. filip,

      would you let your son or daughter play in that type of match and feel Irmatov has their safety in mind?

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    7. I think Cakir for NGA-ARG and Faghani for BRA-SRB

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    8. I am wondering, whether Gassama would be possible for SRB-BRA. He had a good performance in another UEFA-CONMEBOL match (also in NED-CHI 2014), so it would be a logical next step.
      But I am not sure, whether FIFA already trusts him that much.

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    9. Considering how unjustly Serbia has been treated in the last game, I would expect either Faghani or Geiger to be in charge of Serbia v Brazil... I would prefer the former of course!

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    10. Please not Geiger for Serbia:D Knowing Serbians mentality if something goes wrong it will immediately become an atmosphere of things happening because Americans hate Serbs or CIA fingers involved or something like that:D

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    11. @Jack Collins. I just love those kind of matches as CRO ARG was and with refereeing as it was in that match. Although i would prefer not to have anyone from my family involved in them

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    12. Filip don't be frustrated and don't spread hatred. Enjoy the WC.

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    13. You are some Milo's Montenegrian, Filip? Please, escape political comments on Serbia when you don't understand many things. We don't comment Geiger, you find yourself smart to comment.

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    14. No, i am not anything of what you say and i rally support Serbia. I meant this as a joke nothing more. I am sorry if i offended you

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    15. filip,

      dont get me wrong. i love a good physical match. my philosophy is to let the players play as physical as they can mentally handle it.

      when they understand the ref is not going to card careless or reckless challenges, things get out of control.

      hand gestures only work for so long when you keep changing the line you draw in the sand.

      so you would not let imatov ref your kids match.

      i wouldnt either.

      Delete
  17. Firstly I think that FIFA should have never appointed Brych for a Switzerland game. I am not questioning his integrity, but at least it would have avoided all the polemics.

    Regarding the much discussed penalty incident, the poll shows that 67% of voters consider it was a clear penalty, and VAR should have intervened. I fully agree with them. Mitrovic tried to get in between the defenders who both used their arms to pull and grab him. This is not American Football and these type of offences should be punished.



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. As I said - a 75% - PK, but not a clear one. Even our discussions here show that there are good arguments on both side. It is a grey zone. No crucial mistake.

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  18. Do you remember when I told you, after the German cup final, that Zwayer didn't deserve to be VAR in Russia ? For me it was clear that he has huge problems regarding the interpetation of various situations.
    Zwayer made again two mistakes in Russia in his games as VAR:
    - penalty for Peru in the 3rd minute of the games against Denmark
    - penalty for Serbia in 67th minute of the game against Switzerland.

    Serbia will go home because Zwayer didn't make any intervention. I don't want to hear that it wasn't clear penalty ...

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    Replies
    1. Zwayer was also the VAR to Irmatov in Argentina v Croatia where there many potential RC offences missed!

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  19. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. I highly doubt it is an official account. FIFA would use their official channels to promote it, but also, they would never put a referee in such position. If that really happened at any match, it would be treated internally.

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    2. Also I don't think any referee at the World Cup level can be that arrogant because they have had mental preparations on dealing with VAR!

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    3. Fake account. I will report it.

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  20. I think that in BRA - SRB we will see a referee from a neutral confederation, given the big importance of the game and the facts occurred yesterday in Serbia's game.
    Coming to names: too much for CAF officials, therefore either AFC or CONCACAF. Faghani, Irmatov (we don't know how his performance has been assessed) and Geiger. I don't see other options.

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    1. Faghani will be best choice. That match can promote him for final.

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    2. @Bozidar, I strongly agree!

      I must say I'm a bit annoyed referring to the predictions of the referee for the final. We read yesterday that Brych is to be the front-runner for the final even he had not been appointed until the match Serbia-Switzerland. The same goes for Mazic who we have not seen on the pitch yet. I think it would be more wise to wait for the performance of each referee (at least two or three matches) to make such predictions. UEFA referees have some advantages over the referees from other confederations but the latter have shown quite good performance and Faghani is definitely one of them. So I think it's more appropriate to go step by step regarding the predictions of the referee for the final.

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    3. Brych I think has generated the maximum medial attention among all officials till now so Final looks a difficult for him now!!

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  21. Is there an official complaint to FIFA against Brych? I read it in the media.

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    Replies
    1. Serbian federation send official complain to FIFA against Brych's decisions not to consult VAR in 66min. and for the 3YC's for 6 fouls in 1st half+ treat to Matić in the halftime that his 1st foul will be RC.

      Delete
    2. Also mentioning 2 goals celebration. 2 goal scorers for Swiss are born in Serbia and they are members of Albanian minority in Serbia. They made signs with hands that represents fascistic simbol of great Albania(that never exist really) which incudes parts of Greece,Serbia and Montenegro. Also this gestures are big insult for Switzerland. This sign for those nations its like German player sign "Hail Hit..r" in stadium of Volgograd(Stalingrad).
      #My intention is only to report about os there a official complain and to explain the situation.
      Cheers to all refereeing fans and referees

      Delete
  22. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  23. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  24. After that game and the media attention Brych will be happy to get a 2nd match, may be in 1st knockoutround - but no more. Makes me sad but that's how FIFApolitics function...

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  25. So according to multiple media reports, Serbian coach Krstajić said Brych should be sent to Den Haag - comparing him to a war criminal.

    No comment.

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