Saturday, 26 June 2021

UEFA EURO 2020 Match 38: Wales - Denmark (discussion)

Daniel Siebert will kick off EURO 2020 KO stage by officiating his third game in the competition: Wales - Denmark in Round of 16. Let's comment his performance here. 


Round of 16
Amsterdam, 26 June 2021 18:00 CET
WALES - DENMARK
Referee: Daniel Siebert GER)
Assistant Referee 1: Jan Seidel (GER)
Assistant Referee 2: Rafael Foltyn (GER)
Fourth Official: Ovidiu Alin Hațegan (ROU)
Fifth Official: Sebastian Eugen Gheorghe (ROU)
Video Assistant Referee: Bastian Dankert (GER)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee 1: Christian Dingert (GER)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee 2: Christian Gittelmann (GER)
Assistant Video Assistant Referee 3: Marco Fritz (GER)
UEFA Referee Observer: Jaap Uilenberg (NED)
UEFA Delegate: Milovan Đukanović (MNE)

161 comments:

  1. Was that a clear handling in the penalty area at 11:55 on the replay?...

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    Replies
    1. I thought the same but virtually no Welsh appeals. The shot looked on target as well.

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    2. I rewatched the replay many times and I'm not sure. I hope there will be better angles.

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    3. Has anyone found the timestamp for the live action already?

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    4. https://streamable.com/dupqav

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    5. Well, what I can say is that Siebert hardly saw it, I think he rather missed this touch. I hope that VAR noticed it, maybe an OFR wouldn't have been wrong. According to this video, looks like defender increased body's volume by that action, blocking a shot on goal.

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    6. Thanks, Marvin. I think we have to see a video in real speed. Looks more like a punishable handball that was missed. Siebert's view was likely obscured due to Bale's back.

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    7. It seemed to me crystal clear penalty but now i am thinking about the chance that the ball hit Bale's arm. Because noone expected penalty and Kjaer's arm didn't move like ball hit. Just brainstorming.

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    8. I seriously don't understand the broadcaster in this tournament. They never show good replays on difficult incidents. FRA-POR last min. penalty expectation, WAL-DEN possible handball. IMO we will understand this incident after Dankert gets the next appointment.

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    9. On the other hand: Without the replay at 11:55, we probably would have 25 comments less on this thread, because I assume, nobody saw this possible handball in the live sequence.

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  2. It seemed to be punishable but not very clear angles. They showed once.

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  3. https://imguploader.net/if/hrFKq60nnOKn.jpeg

    IMO it's crystal clear penalty.

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    Replies
    1. For me this photo isn't enough to assess this situation. We have ro wait for further replays.

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    2. His arm is not in natural position. The ball directly goes to open arm. I think it's penalty and YC.

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    3. For me no penalty, because of the short distance.

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  4. Denmark goal: maybe offside (line of vision)?

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    Replies
    1. No, not even offside. Excellent onside by AR2, close call.

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    2. Yes onside, otherwise it should have been discussed, but for me goal would have been allowed as well. Good decision by AR2 with the ONSIDE.

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    3. If the Danish forward was offside but the Wales keeper has no chance to save the shot (the latter of which was the case here), could a goal still be taken away from VAR for interfering with play by blocking the goalkeeper's line of site?

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  5. Yes, it was handling but there are two questions: 1) Noone expected a penalty whistle for handling, maybe Siebert "learned" from Lahoz and Turpin who gave penalties that were not expected (or he simply has not seen it). 2) Was it a punishable ("intentional") handling in sense of the LotG? Has to be rewatched but, depending on when the incident occurred, there were several shots on the goal, blocking and so on. Argument against penalty could be that it was an opaque situation for the defender.

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  6. For me the replay of the possible handball situation looks a bit strange. I think it is possible that the ball didn't hit the defender's hand but Bale's body.

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    Replies
    1. Indeed, very well seen, Anonymous. Ball hits Bale's body first and then hits defender's arm if we watch the video in slow motion.

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    2. Then no penalty is the right decision.

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    3. Now I am not sure anymore if Bale's was really hit by the ball, I rewatched it several times. I think we have to wait for a behind-the-goal-angle.

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    4. I sift through slow motions, also from behind the goal. Just from the movement of Bale's arm, it could also be his arm that was hit. I am not an expert how to upload/cut videos but maybe I find a way.

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    5. The body deflection is not anymore a consideration for handball. That wording was removed from LOTG 20/21.

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    6. How can you see the incident behind the goal?

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    7. I meant 21/22.

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  7. Great performance so far from Siebert! Both YC correct!

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  8. Interesting to read some comments about this handball. Defender Wales is clearly making his body bigger with two arms outstretched. He stands upright and block a shot on goal with his left arm out of the body. I agree the distance is short. Compare this one with the handball in Italy - Turkey. Defender there had also his arm out, but for balance when raising his leg. It was a cross and not a shot on goal. What makes this handball not punishable and the other one does?

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    Replies
    1. I totally agree. Also in Italy - Turkey the shot was from a short distance and more much natural than this handball.

      So either both not or both yes.

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  9. Best clip I can manage of the replay for now:

    https://streamable.com/sp7om9

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    Replies
    1. Here it looks like it doesn't hit the arm of the defender at all..

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    2. In this case it looks like Bale was hit by ball, but not sure about the arms of defender indeed...

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    3. One thing is convincing me about not penalty. Bale is not waiting for penalty call at all. If the ball hit Kjaer's arm i think he would raise his hand and ask for penalty. No reaction at all.

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    4. Impossible to say IMO. It seems for me that the attacker's arm or stomach is hit and due to the camera angle, it looks like the arm of the defender. But it could be different. In case of touch with the defender's arm, it's a mandatory penalty. Hopefully, Dankert and his colleagues had better angles in order to assess that properly, but I'm afraid that their inability to come to a unambigious conclusion is the reason for their non-intervention.

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    5. agree with you Flip! in german magenta tv they showed a perspective from behind the goal, where you could estimate that it was rather bale who handled the ball than kjaer. and also i agree with hugo: if kjaer handled the ball, then bale would have surely complained!

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    6. Actually the ball never hit Kjaer's arm. It first hit the knee of Kjaer and after that the right arm of Bale. After that it went into direction of Kjaer's hand but he was able to move away his hand because the ball slowed down after the contact with Bale. Both Wales players had more clear angles than Siebert and that's why none of them wanted a penalty. Once again - pretty clear situation if you have ever played football because you can judge perfectly well any movement of the ball or bodies. Most of the referees cannot. Good job by Siebert. Poor comments on the blog.

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  10. Excellent performance so far. Could get more testing as WAL are getting increasingly frustrated (with their own lack of success).

    Siebert’s style is excellent - calm, unflustered, low-key. Didn’t know much about him until this tournament but seems like a good safe pair of hands. Will be interesting to see him in a tougher, higher-pressure game.

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    Replies
    1. Haha you called it about it getting testy as Wales got frustrated

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  11. Good, expected level performance by Siebert so far. He isn't so challenged (normal diffulty).

    Regarding the handball at 11', IMO it's punishable but not something that you would call "a clear and obvious error".

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  12. I honestly am so confused about that penalty situation. Watching that one replay back and forth. I don't know if I am now seeing things after watching it that many times :D, but it looks like the ball changes direction after the attacker hits it? Or does the ball hit Bale's body after the shot? Also defenders arm movement after he allegedly touched it looks odd as well. Without further angles of the incident, impossible to decide imo.

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    Replies
    1. That's exactly what I think. I'm not sure what is hit by the ball. Bale, the defender's arm or possibly the defender's knee first. We can't assess the situation based on this replay.

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  13. Now big controversy with 0-2 by Denmark. Players wanted a foul. For sure VAR can't intervene there.

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    Replies
    1. That's not a foul, but rather a normal amount of physical play IMO. Nothing the VAR should intervene for and I think, the widely expected call is play-on.

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    2. Clear missed foul, but too far back for VAR

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    3. EXCELLENT play on call in my view.

      Moore put himself across the defender, Siebert very visibly prepared for assessing duels with the Wales striker in the 1H, and was dead right to play on there.

      VAR had the nerve to support (if it was even in the same APP), well done.

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    4. Another replay at 53:13.
      If the situation in ENG-SCO was no penalty, this should also be no foul...

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    5. Strongly agree with Mikael! For me, the absolutely right decision, because the Welsh player is clearly looking for contact, puts his body into the Danish defender and wants to provoke a foul.

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    6. I agree with Mikael. Replay showed the Moore's movement. Good call imo.

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    7. Great play on call. No foul. Correct goal.

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  14. Oh, no. Bale is complaining about foul before the goal, and replay looks there was a foul uncalled.

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  15. By the way, UEFA could not find any other fourth official for Wales but the only referee who sent off one of their players in their last match?

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    Replies
    1. What do you want to say with that, the sending off was fully correct.

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  16. Best angles I can find. We cannot be sure but I perceive (from behind the goal) that the ball did not hit defender's left hand, however, from the other videos we could see that it definitely did not his right arm.
    Anyway, if we watch it so often (I am doing it for about 45 minutes), it is not possible to make such an evaluation as a VAR if they have not any other angles.

    https://streamable.com/4m17nc (front)
    https://streamable.com/lx9lrc (behind)
    https://streamable.com/gsfjqe (behind)

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    Replies
    1. oops we couldnt find your video

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    2. Thanks for the clip. It seems like the ball hit Bale's body or hand.

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    3. https://streamable.com/2gzjk7

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    4. Thank you so much, Anonymous. Right conclusion but we all did not get that it was the defender's LEG that was hit before the ball hit Bale's body. We have the confirmation, NO PENALTY. Finally!

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    5. Oh this is the best angle. So no penalty call is the correct decision.
      Thank you !

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    6. Thank you for that video! So finally confirmed, no penalty.

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  17. Unfortunately I could not concentrate on Siebert's performance because I wanted to have a look at the incident in 11' but it seems like he is in full control. Hope he does well.

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  18. What does everyone think one makes one a great referee? For me, number one is watching other great referees to know how the rules are implemented: for example, the highway speed limit might be 100 kmph, but what how are the police implementing that law? I think that's why referees in the U.S. are at a big disadvantage, since they probably haven't seen as many games as their global counterparts with football not being as popular in the U.S. as elsewhere.

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  19. For the most part of the game we are still deliberating on the incident of the 11th minute and still no conclusive evidence it did strike the arm, imagine we where at the VAR booth in Nyon the game will still be stoped waiting for a great angle to see where it if it struck the hand, but all we can say is that there was no evidence or it’s not clear and obvious as we are still saying it struck bale or not or it struck the defenders arm or not!!! So we can say that particular incident was not clear and obvious if it really struck the arm!!!

    On another note Daniel Seibert actually has a passive body language IMO not really a big deal, maybe it comes as he is still a young referee and also tolerating a lot of time wasting from the Danish players

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  20. Replies
    1. Absolutely correct

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    2. Sorry but that's never a straight red card. Yellow all day long.

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    3. Not because of the hitting point but because #8-WAL definitely did not want to play the ball, only focussing on the attacker. Supportable at least.

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    4. What an excellent decision! The competition of Siebert in one word: awesome!

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    5. Agree with ref 1071

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    6. excellent decision! no intention to play the ball, just frustration and only wants to hurt the opponent. nothing to do with football and therefore correctly penalized with straight red card. excessive force and endangering safety of the opponent.

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  21. In real time it looked like a clear red card, but after seeing the replay that decision is too harsh.

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  22. Well done, Siebert. Serious foul play, RC without hesitation!
    However, replay showed that it wasn't so bad as it looked live.
    I can fully understand Siebert and VAR is right as well in supporting.

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    Replies
    1. I have a feeling it was for VC. The point of contact doesn't support excessive force - I think rather this is brutality (no chance to play the ball, only point is to hurt the other player out of frustration).

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    2. Violent conduct, not SFP.

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  23. That isn't a red card for may - way too harsh!!

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  24. Those challenges are like more VC than SFP. Correct/acceptable RC in my book. Welsh players are quite frustrated.

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  25. Excellent decision in my opinion. Even though the hit was not bad, he had no intention in playing the ball. He only wanted to hurt his opponent out of frustration.

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  26. Hard decision. For me is YC better than RC.

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  27. Correct red card. Point of contact is not the only factor. A foul with this itensity only targeted at the opponent has to punished with a sending off!

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  28. Wow, what an end. Now very, very tight offside decision by AR1.

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  29. Excellent RC. Player doesn't want to play the ball. He only wants to play the player.

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  30. Italian commentators are saying that Siebert whistled before ball entered the net but they are wrong. In my opinion regular goal, and VAR will allow it.

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    Replies
    1. In the replay you could see that he whistled and indicated offiside only after the ball crossed the line. Correct goal.

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  31. Wrong RC. It was tripping and not violent conduct or with excessive force.

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    Replies
    1. A ‘trip’??!! He ran up and hacked him to the ground…,

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  32. That's one of the WORST RCs I have ever seen a referee give in my whole life.

    A very good game for Siebert, but that RC is a VERY VERY bad decision.

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    Replies
    1. And I say that with all the respect.

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    2. Worst? How many RCs have you seen? 10? :D

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    3. Lawaj, I have the impression you would never give a RC. What has a player to do so that you give a RC?
      Siebert's RC was absolutely correct.

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    4. Why do you think like that? He only wanted to foul or even injure the opponent. At this speed this endangers the safety of his opponent. I can see that the contact itself is not very bad but the other points mentioned above outweigh the point of contact to me.

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    5. @Lawaj: No way! A red card not only can be given by breaking the bones of the opponent player. In this situation you can see a lot of frustration and it's impossible for #8 Wales to play the ball anyway. Red card is the best decision Siebrt can choose.

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    6. If that was a Euros final, with the game at 1-1 and Ronaldo made that type of challenge, and he receives that RC, ALL HELL would have broken loose.

      If such tackles can be awarded as a RC, then football is gone!!!

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    7. Ronaldo would NEVER tackle like this in that situation. You only do it if you're frustrated.

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    8. @Lawaj - you really do make some very strange comments on this blog. What’s Ronaldo got to do with it?

      Absolutely no intention to play the ball. Running at speed to deliberately hack down a player is absolutely clear SFP. Immature, frustrated lack of discipline at this level

      Delete
    9. Such a foul should be a RC. Anyway whether Ronaldo, Wison or a an amateur fouled this way.

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    10. @Steve

      So you think it's strange for me to disagree with a RC.
      Now you are the one who's really strange.

      Yes, it was a cynical tackle from a frustrated player, but it was NOT dangerous, reckless, high or worthy of a YC.

      If the referee had issued a YC, NOBODY would be talking about that incident.

      However, don't get me wrong though, overall I still think referee Siebert had an EXCELLENT game, but that RC for me is unacceptable.

      Delete
    11. @Steve

      So you think it's strange for me to disagree with a RC.
      Now you are the one who's really strange.

      Yes, it was a cynical tackle from a frustrated player, but it was NOT dangerous, reckless, high or worthy of a *RC.

      If the referee had issued a YC, NOBODY would be talking about that incident.

      However, don't get me wrong though, overall I still think referee Siebert had an EXCELLENT game, but that RC for me is unacceptable.

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    12. As a referee who also plays and coaches football. If I ever found myself or my team with the type of referee that Lawaj portrays himself to be (if he's even a referee). I have a feeling that for reasons of player safety, I would be inclined to pull myself or my team off the pitch. It's football, not all out lawless combat.

      Delete
    13. Sounds like Mark Clattenburg wouldn't be good enough for you then, given his comments on the situation.

      RC is acceptable, though I think YC more appropriate

      Delete
  33. That looked like a correct offside for me, shoulder of Braithwaite seemed verry slightly ahead, anyway match is decided.

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  34. Good remark by Quilava, the foul can be considered VC given the attitude of the player (aware he couldn't reach ball, hitting deliberately opponent) so no matter intensity.

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    Replies
    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    2. Is that an official FIFA consideration for VC?

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  35. Ridiculous RC. It’s professional football, not amateur level. It was a small contact and not with high intensity or in a dangerous way. It’s a tournament and other teams will compare this one with fouls in their matches.

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    Replies
    1. How’s that not hight intensity for you?

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    2. It is similar to many fouls where yellow cards are given to be fair. I am certain that if Siebert had pulled the YC nobody would have complained and no one here would have said it was a wrong decision.

      However, there is a case for VC as there was zero point to this challenge and it aimed only at hurting the Danish player.

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    3. I was complaining in my own even before He gave the rc, because i Just did see how a Wales Player Trier to hurt maele

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    4. Good luck trying to find any similar example in this tournament of a player running at someone to deliberately chop them down like that to ‘compare’. I’ll save you some time, there isn’t one.

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    5. Boom!!!
      Steve dropping truth bombs.

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    6. I feel like most fouls to stop a counterattack would be fair comparisons, of which there are many - and almost all are handled with a YC

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  36. I think it was a quite good Performance from Siebert! :)

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  37. Excellent performance by Siebert in an (in the end) quite challenging game! Great tournament for him and his team!

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  38. VERY tight offside now. VAR overruled AR Seidel. My first impression was offside, one cannot blame the linesman for that flag too much.

    About the RC, I personally very like those sending-offs. The Wales player is very frustrated and - without any chance to play the ball - hits the Denmark player, who wins position and is about the break out.

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  39. Has anybody got a clip of the RC?

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  40. In Spain I think >90% of referees would issue a RC for this. Teammates of the player who receives those challenges dislike it a lot because it's a 'deliberate attacking tackle', quick RC not only did justice (IMO) but possibly avoided a mass confrontation.

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  41. Here is Video : https://streamable.com/wth4qw

    My opinion is harsh decision.

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    Replies
    1. For me it is a clear RC. You can see that the ball is far away and he only wants to hurt his opponent.

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    2. I disagree, WAL-#8 was sprinting about 20 metres towards the attacker, was coming from behind and knew (!) that he could not play the ball. Nevertheless he was jumping in the attacker's legs. Only intention was to hurt the attacker. I agree with the comments saying it was a VC.

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    3. Watching the live sequence, if you don't give RC, you MAKE a mistake. The intention of hurting opponent is very clear!
      And if you don't understand that I'm really sorry...

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    4. @Chefren: I looked again several times and also give you right RC is completely fine.

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    5. Marvin, sorry for my answer it was a generic comment, not directly targeted to you!

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    6. Respectfully, I think we have to be careful here.
      Another referee could have given a YC and managed the situation and it would have been fine. This is by no means a clear textbook red card - as an anonymous commenter has said, I've seen worse go unpunished.

      Now, I support a red card here due to the match context - there was no reason to make such a challenge other than to hurt the opponent out of frustration. Common sense, football in general, and UEFA will accept the decision. It is not wrong... but I think it is not the only correct decision as people make it out to be. Red card is simply easier to accept.

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  42. Wales #8 sprinted 20-25 metres with the sole focus of hitting the Danish player, not even considering playing the ball. Clear red card for VC for me, even if the intensity of the contact itself wasn't that high.

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    Replies
    1. Exactly! It's simply Law 18: Common Sense! Neither the force nor hitting point point to excessive force while assessing potential SFP but as there was no chance and no will to play the ball, every amount of force is enough to consider it a VC. And it was simply expected decision. Such deliberate action caused by frustration of much weaker team's player in last minute, after opponents having scored a fourth goal... Psychologically, such action always screams for a red card to be given!

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  43. Daniel Siebert should referee the final, no questions asked. The best referee of this tournament by such a long way. Nothing but total, total respect for him and his performances, THE BEST!!

    Thank you Mr Siebert, you showed us total excellence today :)

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    Replies
    1. Who tells that the people at ratetheref? ;)

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    2. That was perfection! For me, Siebert was underrated by UEFA behind Zwayer and Stieler for a long time but now UEFA sees what a great referee he is!

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    3. Good performance and good RC. However i have to mention that ive seen worse tackles (por fra) even go unpunished (for which many people on the blog thought no intervention was all right.....)

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    4. @Anonymous 20:10 German FA „DFB“ wants Zwayer or Siebert as Brych’s successor because they represent a German way of refereeing (strict, many yellow cards) but Siebert fits better to the line which UEFA expects

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    5. Obviously a joke. No way he can. But he is a brilliant brilliant referee.

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    6. Siebert has no control over what other referee's do or don't do.
      He only controls the incidents within his matches. As he's "ACED" the exams he's been assigned so far.

      Delete
  44. It's not a challenge for the ball, his only intention is to kick the Danish player, therefore it can certainly be given as a RC for VC

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  45. Good performance by Siebert in my opinion.

    11' https://streamable.com/2gzjk7
    I'll just borrow the link that one Anonymous user posted earlier. Ball hits the defender's leg and then Bale's body. Correct no penalty call.

    YCs at 25' 40' 80' and 90+3 were all correct in my opinion.
    Also the RC situation was very well seen by Siebert imo. Wales #8 had no intention on playing the ball, his sole focus was to hurt his opponent. So I'd say more VC than SFP even.

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  46. Brych's successor has been found :)

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  47. https://streamja.com/OB43b RC

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  48. I feel like the red card could have been avoided with a bit more game management. The 10 minutes prior, Wales committed a lot of professional fouls of SPA and reckless nature. One or two more cautious might have slowed things down.

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  49. I do find it extremely sad that (social) media thinks that this was a terrible performance by Siebert while almost all of us here think it was a great performance...

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    Replies
    1. On reddit (r/soccer) most people think it was a good decision.

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  50. About the penalty accident - actually the ball never hit Kjaer's arm. It first hit the knee of Kjaer and after that the right arm of Bale. After that it went into direction of Kjaer's hand but he was able to move away his hand because the ball slowed down after the contact with Bale. Both Wales players had more clear angles than Siebert and that's why none of them wanted a penalty. Once again - pretty clear situation if you have ever played football because you can judge perfectly well any movement of the ball or bodies. Most of the referees cannot. Good job by Siebert. Poor comments on the blog.

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    Replies
    1. "The blog" already came to the same conclusion and was very careful from the beginning to call that a clear handball.

      Delete
  51. About RC I am thankful that a player who did not even try to play the ball but to hurt his opponent got what he asked for.
    In general I am so happy seeing Siebert on this level now. He has made so big steps forward the last 2 years, is finding his own style, a very, very promising referee. I am especially impressed by this mixture of relaxed coolness, staying friendly in his communication, but never leaving any doubts about his decisions. Wow.

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    Replies
    1. IMO this is a 100% RC due to revenche idea by WAL player combined with not any eye for the ball.
      This is SFP. However, with the exception of DFB referees, this is used very little (too little).
      My experience says that Wolfgang Stark and Herbert Fandel would also never have hesitated to make the same (correct) decision. Red card !

      Delete
  52. But but but Siebert isn't in the "Elite Group"!!!

    And it don't make a difference. Siebert is CURRENTLY in great FORM. He's excelled while some in the high and mighty "Elite Group" have floundered. As long as Siebert continues to "ACE" his assignments, he should continue to work. Present form, not past glories.

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  53. Lol the first non-Hategan RC of the tournament is with Hategan as fourth official

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  54. HIGHLIGHTS

    https://we.tl/t-RycQ3UAfzN

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